Kindly also note that Asmodeus is Saranrae's longest and most enduring opponent, and the current king of Taldor expressly owes his throne to the manipulations of Asmodeus.
At least, per the history in the Tomb of the Iron Medusa. I see ABSOLUTELY no reason not to think that the banning of Saranrae and the schism of her faith is the result of manipulations by Asmodeus.
==Aelryinth
Creative Director
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Kindly also note that Asmodeus is Saranrae's longest and most enduring opponent, and the current king of Taldor expressly owes his throne to the manipulations of Asmodeus.
At least, per the history in the Tomb of the Iron Medusa. I see ABSOLUTELY no reason not to think that the banning of Saranrae and the schism of her faith is the result of manipulations by Asmodeus.
==Aelryinth
I'd actually say that Asmodeus is Sarenrae's second most enduring opponent after Rovagug. The two of them, after all, did work together to help put Rovagug down back in the day.
I'd actually say that Asmodeus is Sarenrae's second most enduring opponent after Rovagug. The two of them, after all, did work together to help put Rovagug down back in the day.Kindly also note that Asmodeus is Saranrae's longest and most enduring opponent, and the current king of Taldor expressly owes his throne to the manipulations of Asmodeus.
At least, per the history in the Tomb of the Iron Medusa. I see ABSOLUTELY no reason not to think that the banning of Saranrae and the schism of her faith is the result of manipulations by Asmodeus.
==Aelryinth
I say Asmodeus because Rovagug is locked up in a cage and nowhere near as active as the King of Devils. I used 'enduring' in the description for a reason.
I mean, seriously, if you're talking about enemies in general, Rovagug is the oldest enemy of EVERYONE. But in terms of who Saranrae has had to confront over the many eons, I'd definitely give the nod to Asmodeus.
==Aelryinth
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I'm kinda saddened that things like this. I mean, Erastil is no longer sexist and now this.
Basically, things being un pc create plot points, tension irony and grit; all those things which help to make for good story, and good RP. Basically you're bowderizing your creations because it has nasty, uncomfortable, unsafe parts. Just like the original Bowdler did to Shakespeare's plays.
That is very sad.
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I'm kinda saddened that things like this. I mean, Erastil is no longer sexist and now this.
Basically, things being un pc create plot points, tension irony and grit; all those things which help to make for good story, and good RP. Basically you're bowderizing your creations because it has nasty, uncomfortable, unsafe parts. Just like the original Bowdler did to Shakespeare's plays.
That is very sad.
to be fair this is less about being Pc and more Not how the character was intended to be.
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As the inventor of Sarenrae (who's been the main goddess of good in my homebrew campaign for decades now), my issue is that she's supposed to be the kindest, most friendly, most forgiving, and most open-minded of ALL the deities. That's in large part why she's the goddess of redemption, after all.
Sarenrae is one of my favorite deities, and one that I've got a LOT of personal interest in and have, as mentioned above, spent decades doing work on. She, along with Desna, Rovagug, Abadar, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Gorum, Norgorber, and a few others have been characters near and dear to my heart for nearly 30 years. I think that an adventure path focusing on ANY of them would be great... but I think that Sarenrae's the one that has drifted the furthest from my vision and personal touch, and as such is the one I'm probably most eager to spend a lot of time exploring.
As someone whose first PFS character (and current highest level PFS character) is a cleric of Sarenrae, it's fricking awesome that my question about Sarenrae worship in Taldor got a reply from the creator of Sarenrae.
There's ABSOLUTELY some worshipers of Sarenrae who crusade against slavery and slavers themselves and DO use violence against the slavers.
My Cleric/Holy Vindicator has as a result of previous PFS chronicles membership in the Silver Crusade while also being considered an upstanding citizen of Andoran and he's got the Eagle Knight and Tiller vanities. He's very much a crusader against slavery.
I wouldn't mind seeing Taldor still banning Sarenrae as a combination of xenophobia and misunderstanding, or because they realize that the entire religion isn't bad but think it's the only way to be sure they exclude the dangerous elements.
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As the inventor of Sarenrae (who's been the main goddess of good in my homebrew campaign for decades now), my issue is that she's supposed to be the kindest, most friendly, most forgiving, and most open-minded of ALL the deities. That's in large part why she's the goddess of redemption, after all.
So, when you have a nation that outlaws that... a nation that outlaws the goddess of healing, honesty, and redemption... that more or less by definition turns that nation into a bad-guy nation. And that's not what I want for Taldor, any more than I want there to be a perception that Sarenrae is a warmongering goddess of warfare. She is not.
There was, alas, a fair amount of misunderstanding regarding her actual personality and role, I feel, in how things worked out with Qadira and Taldor, and the idea that there's a warmongering sect of Sarenites in Qadira is one of the reasons that Taldor outlawed the faith many years ago... all of which stem from the same freelancer misunderstanding that, alas, got into print (in large part because that was before my time as creative director, and before I had as direct control over the contents of things other than the Adventure Paths).
The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.
It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.
I have a question, for being the kindest god her followers seem to be quite willing to invade other places (the northern Garundi territories, etc) they also don't seem to be as proactive against slavery as I would figure they would be for a NG religion. Why is this? I mean wouldn't she come and lay the smackdown on her followers who do things like this? I would have figured that they would be more into doing quiet missionary based invasions, meaning former hellholes would be turned to her by quiet invasions overnight of her missionaries entering the country instead of outright war like in the Kingdom of Man in Garund.
Its almost like she is NG but her followers in these cases are not good at all. I can see a CG group doing this because they feel they should liberate a place but NG resorting to outright war first? Not sure about that unless it was a place like Cheliax which they seem to turn a blind eye to, and that also does not make sense because I would think that an NG god's forces would be hitting certain places -first- and Cheliax, the
Hold in Belzen (sp?) would certainly be on my to do list if I was an NG god with thousands of followers. We'd be on those places like white on rice.
I would figure that there would be one NG god that non good people absolutely hate because he/she gets all guerilla strikeforce on your candy ass if you are doing horrible things to the people.
I've read one of the tenets of being NG on the Golarion wiki, and it says that they would not shy away from evil acts. Slavery is an evil act, but only some of them crusade against it? Is that really being NG at all? Or any good for that matter?
Are there any more proactive NG gods that don't tolerate things like that? Because if there aren't there certainly needs to be.
You aren't getting the beauty of the sun to shine in the faces of all if you simply just walk by or ignore those being used as human chattel on the street.
I have a question, for being the kindest god her followers seem to be quite willing to invade other places (the northern Garundi territories, etc) they also don't seem to be as proactive against slavery as I would figure they would be for a NG religion. Why is this? I mean wouldn't she come and lay the smackdown on her followers who do things like this? I would have figured that they would be more into doing quiet missionary based invasions, meaning former hellholes would be turned to her by quiet invasions overnight of her missionaries entering the country instead of outright war like in the Kingdom of Man in Garund.
Its almost like she is NG but her followers in these cases are not good at all. I can see a CG group doing this because they feel they should liberate a place but NG resorting to outright war first? Not sure about that unless it was a place like Cheliax which they seem to turn a blind eye to, and that also does not make sense because I would think that an NG god's forces would be hitting certain places -first- and Cheliax, the
Hold in Belzen (sp?) would certainly be on my to do list if I was an NG god with thousands of followers. We'd be on those places like white on rice.
I would figure that there would be one NG god that non good people absolutely hate because he/she gets all guerilla strikeforce on your candy ass if you are doing horrible things to the people.I've read one of the tenets of being NG on the Golarion wiki, and it says that they would not shy away from evil acts. Slavery is an evil act, but only some of them crusade against it? Is that really being NG at all? Or any good for that matter?
Are there any more proactive NG gods that don't tolerate things like that? Because if there aren't there certainly needs to be.
You aren't getting the beauty of the sun to shine in the faces of all if you simply just walk by or ignore those being used as human chattel on the street.
Hmmm...
Sounds a lot like many real-world religions.
Basically, there is a distinction between the god, the god's church, the faithful of the church, and leaders who pay lip service to that church when it's convenient.
I think there are plenty of individuals, including leaders, in the Church of Sarenrae that are not Good. There may even be a few that are Evil. Some of these people may think they're following the teachings of the chuch, but they're deluding themselves. Remember that you don't have to be a cleric to be a leader in a chuch. And, it's possible to be an ex-cleric (because your god has lost faith in you) and retain your leadership position within the church. Or even be an undercover enemy-- a false priest, or a priest of an opposing faith.
Regarding: Opposing slavery but not crusading against it...
Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Sometimes it's more effective to make changes from within the system than it is to rail against it in open opposition.
In the United States, there had been an abolitionist movement that started in late Colonial times. It took 100 years and a civil war to end slavery. It took another 100 years to end the tyrrany of legalized racial discrimination. And it's been another 50 years, and we're still dealing with endemic racial discrimination.
The Golarion Pantheon also have a pact of non interference. None are allowed to take direct actions in the mortal realm and there have only been a few extreme cases where they have.
Also depending on how deep into Islamic parallels you want to get, slavery isn't inherently evil in their history as it includes religious slavery where servitude is seen as work being performed for god, as well as blood debts which was based on honor. The fact that these notions could be twisted and corrupted is of course a problem.
They have done a good job of making the portfolio of the gods diverse enough to make them multifaceted. One of the books (forget which) talks about how.mortals can't grasp the full intent of the gods divine outlook. In short mortals can get it wrong while still getting enough of it right.
This basically means the taldor/qadira thing is politics nationalism and religion mixed with nationalism.
It Maidenform good stories I think.
I get what you guys are saying about the no interference but I would figure that those same groups who would be doing such things that are supposedly against her tenets would wake up one day and find their abilities gone.
"Ah we just conquered this country in the name of Sarenrae"
Next morning..
"What, my connection to her is gone, my divine powers are not working anymore!..."
It would be no different from an alignment shift during a table session causing a Paladin to lose his abilities. I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense based on what NG is supposed to be. I mean even at a tabletop game there are supposed to be rules against such things and by breaking the rules of your order you lose your abilities real time due to an alignment shift. By saying (or enabling) such things you are basically making your rules moot and turning her tenets into hypocrisy.
GM "Oh sorry Pally your abilities no longer work because you took a turn to LE"
Pally: "Why would my abilities not work anymore? In year such and such clerics of Saranae invaded the Kingdom of Man for a holy war and their powers still worked, my act was no different from theirs"
Is there any possibility of getting an IN universe reason for this change? I get that it wasn't what was originally intended, but it was what's been portrayed for several years, and what's been used, so an in universe reason for the change would be appreciated. XD
My GM would thank you quite a bit, as this is actually a central plot element to his campaign, and we're all kinda sitting her trying to figure out if it should be allowed in or not.
Is there any possibility of getting an IN universe reason for this change? I get that it wasn't what was originally intended, but it was what's been portrayed for several years, and what's been used, so an in universe reason for the change would be appreciated. XD
My GM would thank you quite a bit, as this is actually a central plot element to his campaign, and we're all kinda sitting her trying to figure out if it should be allowed in or not.
If you're playing a home game, you're not restricted to what's published. If the Taldan ban on Sarenrae worship is canon in your game-world, then keep on keepin' on. GMs aren't beholden to what gets published in any Campaign Setting book... or rulebook for that matter!
If you're playing a home game, you're not restricted to what's published. If the Taldan ban on Sarenrae worship is canon in your game-world, then keep on keepin' on. GMs aren't beholden to what gets published in any Campaign Setting book... or rulebook for that matter!
We know, and that may be what we have to do.
But, there could be an in-universe thing we can utilize in our games. "Oh, Sarenrae worship was re-legalized if blah blah and blah are kept, and the Cult of the Dawnflower is still KoS.", that's something that would possibly add to our game, depending on reasoning.
It's just something that was extremely plot relevant, and before he decides, he was hoping to see what the in-game reason was. :)
I get what you guys are saying about the no interference but I would figure that those same groups who would be doing such things that are supposedly against her tenets would wake up one day and find their abilities gone.
"Ah we just conquered this country in the name of Sarenrae"
Next morning..
"What, my connection to her is gone, my divine powers are not working anymore!..."
And that might happen. Of course, what the character does with that knowledge isn't set in stone.
Does the ex-cleric simply think that it's a test of faith, and that the way to get his powers back is to double down on his heresy?
Does he realize that he's lost his way, but is too cowardly to admit that he was wrong? In that case, he may pretend that there's nothing wrong, again doubling down on the heresy.
Does he think that his goddes has led him astray and then abandoned him? In that case, he might privately renounce his faith and take up another one (Sifkesh, maybe) pretending to stay faithful, while working to bring it down from within?
Or does he realize the error of his ways, repent, and work to undo the damage he's caused?
Depends on the story you want to tell!
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Basically the In Game explanation given was that Taldor is just dumb, and can't do absolutely anything right, so while they tried to ban it, even they themselves didn't give a crap about what Taldor said, and just ignored it once they initially burned all the churches and killed all the priests that didn't get out.
If you're playing a home game, you're not restricted to what's published. If the Taldan ban on Sarenrae worship is canon in your game-world, then keep on keepin' on. GMs aren't beholden to what gets published in any Campaign Setting book... or rulebook for that matter!We know, and that may be what we have to do.
But, there could be an in-universe thing we can utilize in our games. "Oh, Sarenrae worship was re-legalized if blah blah and blah are kept, and the Cult of the Dawnflower is still KoS.", that's something that would possibly add to our game, depending on reasoning.
It's just something that was extremely plot relevant, and before he decides, he was hoping to see what the in-game reason was. :)
This would be an interesting basis for an Adventure Path, or at least a Novel.
This would be an interesting basis for an Adventure Path, or at least a Novel.know, and that may be what we have to do.
But, there could be an in-universe thing we can utilize in our games. "Oh, Sarenrae worship was re-legalized if blah blah and blah are kept, and the Cult of the Dawnflower is still KoS.", that's something that would possibly add to our game, depending on reasoning.
It's just something that was extremely plot relevant, and before he decides, he was hoping to see what the in-game reason was. :)
Oh yes it would. :D