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Correct me if wrong, basically a sneak attack can be done when:
The target is Blinded
The target is Cowering
The target is Flat-footed
The target is Helpless
The target is Paralyzed (causes Helpless condition)
The target is Pinned (causes Flat-footed condition)
The target is Stunned
The target is Unconscious (causes Helpless condition)
You are Flanking the Targhet
You are Invisible
You are Stealthed and sneak attack, whitout being seen, before the targhet notice you (usually in the surprise round)
Now those can be easily done with meele and ranged weapons (except flanking with ranged attacks for obvious reasons), and most of those works even with spells too (those who requires attack rolls like rays)
Now, what I'm wondering for is...
1. Using a spell with verbal component whould make you unable to do the sneak attack because the targhet is aware of you the moment you cast the spell?
2. Same happen if you're Stealthed or Invisible?
3. What if the target is Blind (no Dex bonus to AC) but not Deaf?
4. Except Silent Spells and the Oracle's Deaf Curse, there's other ways to cast spells without revealing yourself with the verbal components?
5. There's some spell who doesn't have a verbal component and can be used for a sneak attack?
6. There's an "easy" way to achieve the "no Dex bonus to AC" condition, instead of sneaking or being invisible? I'm interested mostly about ranged touch attack, so Feint doesn't apply.
If you can, in game situation examples are appreciated.
Thanks for you time ^^
You don't need all of those, so if they're flat-footed, doesn't matter whether they see you or not, they're still flat-footed and thus denied dex bonus and thus you can sneak attack.
IF you have the conditions for sneak attack, casting a spell which triggers an attack should not remove the conditions for sneak attack until after the attack goes off.
Example AT is hidde and realizes he does not have comprehend languages up as he listens to two people talk. He casts Comprehend languages and makes noise. This alerts the opponents to his presence and he looses any conditions for Surprise or sneak attack.
Example Two, the AT is watching two people and decides to kill one of them. He casts Scorching ray and hits the one on the left, he applies his sneak attack damage to the attack. After the attack is done he looses the conditions that gave him sneak attack.
Resolve his whole action first.
Note that there's a specific ruling that you can't get sneak attack on multiple shots from scorching ray, even though it's explicitly simultaneous. I think this is game balance, not logic.
seebs wrote: Note that there's a specific ruling that you can't get sneak attack on multiple shots from scorching ray, even though it's explicitly simultaneous. I think this is game balance, not logic.
[sarcasm]Yeah, we wouldn't want those rogues to overpower the game by diluting a full caster's power through multiclassing[/sarcasm]
seebs wrote: Note that there's a specific ruling that you can't get sneak attack on multiple shots from scorching ray, even though it's explicitly simultaneous. I think this is game balance, not logic.
I understand this to mean "under normal conditions".
If you are under the effect of Greater Invisibility or the like, I don't see why you shouldn't get SA on all of the attacks, just like if you made a full-attack during the same effect.
(Obviously invisibility can be countered, I'm not trying to debate every possible case)
Thanks for the replyes
So, basically, even if I use verbal component for the spells, i can make the sneak attack because (at least in my turn before attacking) the enemy isn't aware of my presence.
what if I have greater invisibility? even if I hit the targhet, and he's aware of me, but cannot see me, I can still make another sneak-spellcast in the following round?
for the scorching ray fact, I know how much peoples are arguing about, but I don't want to get into the argument XD
If you have greater invis you retain invisibility which is what sets th condition fir sa.
thanks a lot
so, basically I can make a sneak-spellcast without using silent spell if:
The target is Blinded
The target is Cowering
The target is Flat-footed
The target is Helpless
The target is Paralyzed
The target is Pinned
The target is Stunned
The target is Unconscious
I am Invisible
I am Stealthed before the sneak attack
and in the last 2 cases attacking reveal my presence and position so I can sneak attack only once; then I need to disappear again, except for greater invisibility. I am correct?
what use can I do of silent spell then? can I avoid using it completely?
Also note that an arcane trickster gets Tricky Spells, which gives them a few times/day casting with free Still and Silent.
I don't know why you'd object to using it since you get it anyway.
I just looking for something to use more often, keeping all the use/day skills for situation when they can make the difference (like if I have my hand tied up and needed to cast a spell, or saving Impromptu Sneak Attack when I absolutely need the extra damage from surprise spells at any cost ^^)
by the way, I just notice that Impromptu Sneak Attack says you can declare one of your attack to be a sneak attack, but it also mention a targhet...those that mean, if I cast a fireball with surprise spells, then only the first targhet take the sneak attack damage and the others in the area of effect of the spells take only normal damage?
Looking more closely, since Surprise Spells says you can add the sneak attack damage against flat-footed enemyes, not that the spell is considere itself a sneak attack, is even possible to use Impromptu Sneak Attack to activate the effect of Surprise Spells?
Furako wrote: thanks a lot
so, basically I can make a sneak-spellcast without using silent spell if:
The target is Blinded
The target is Cowering
The target is Flat-footed
The target is Helpless
The target is Paralyzed
The target is Pinned
The target is Stunned
The target is Unconscious
I am Invisible
I am Stealthed before the sneak attack
and in the last 2 cases attacking reveal my presence and position so I can sneak attack only once; then I need to disappear again, except for greater invisibility. I am correct?
what use can I do of silent spell then? can I avoid using it completely?
You can make a sneak attack with spells under any condition in which the target is denied his dexterity bonus. The spell of course must be a weapon attack spell in which you roll to hit, not auto-hit such as magic missile, lightning bolt, fireball, etc.
Silent metamagic primarily is used to cast when sound is not allowed like a silence spell. You also need it to buff without being noticed.
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