Sooo . . . assuming you have the requisite STR is power attack worth it for a monk.
Sooo . . . assuming you have the requisite STR is power attack worth it for a monk.
At best, only when flurrying or when you're getting some other big increase to your hit chance (inspire courage, prone opponent, etc). I'm not a fan of Power Attack on 3/4 BAB characters.
In my experience . . . ehh, maybe? The monk's main problem is his accuracy and power attack reduces that even further. Though it might be useful as a pre-req for other feats. On my current monk, I snagged it as a Qinggong power, but only because I didn't want to waste a feat slot for something I'd only occasionally use.
If you have a pocket arcane caster throwing up heroism or Greater heroism on you all the time it's very worth it.
Also at higher levels it's easier to get custom magic items made to focus on your accuracy more.
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Power attack is one of the most over-rated feats on the boards. there are times when it's worth it, but for anyone that is using TWF, the accuracy hit means you will miss on iterative attacks that would have made up for the small boost to damage.
I much prefer Arcane Strike as a method to add static damage on a Monk, and you qualify for it with Qinggong even if you don't have a racial SLA. Yes you can't use it and a Ki Point on the same round, but Ki points are limited, and Arcane Strike is not.
If you are flurrying two handing a temple sword (or whatever) it is worth it, specially when paired with furious focus.
Power attack is one of the most over-rated feats on the boards. there are times when it's worth it, but for anyone that is using TWF, the accuracy hit means you will miss on iterative attacks that would have made up for the small boost to damage.
I much prefer Arcane Strike as a method to add static damage on a Monk, and you qualify for it with Qinggong even if you don't have a racial SLA. Yes you can't use it and a Ki Point on the same round, but Ki points are limited, and Arcane Strike is not.
Agreed on Arcane Strike. Its a great little damage boost.
There are times when you are flanking, the enemy is prone, you're hasted, and you have heroism (or combinations thereof). Those are the times you wish you had flurry and power attack.
Also when flurrying you cannot 2h a temple sword. Well describe it how you wish, but it get's x1str and 1-2 PA
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Also when flurrying you cannot 2h a temple sword. Well describe it how you wish, but it get's x1str and 1-2 PA
This is untrue. You absolutely can two-hand the weapon, and while you don't get the bonus STR damage, you do get the bonus PA damage.
In fact, you may get even more extra PA damage since you use your full Flurry BAB to determine your PA bonus.
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Generally for a Monk Getting Arcane strike is a good thing via Qinggong or racial SLA for a Monk. Another route is Dragon style/ferocity style feats. I would try for the first 2 before grabbing power attack IMO.
Depends on what you want to do. Dragon Style only applies to unarmed strikes (and possibly a natural attack with Feral Combat Training), and carries more prereqs than Power Attack for most builds. If you're planning on going the Unarmed Strike route though, I agree, I'd probably go with Dragon Style.
What's nice is that you can combo them up and get the -1/+3 damage on your monk unarmed strikes.
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The other advantage to flurrying two handed with a temple sword is that it is possible to get Masterwork for the bonus at low level and cheaper to enchant and you can have different version with adamantine, silver or cold iron.
Given that at say lvl 12 you could have 2d6 fist or a 1d8 temple sword the difference in damage is 3 points. at level 12 when power attacking its + 8 damage on the unarmed and + 12 on the sword meaning on average the sword does more damage. Include that at level 12 you could have an AoMF +3 (36000) or an adamantine +4 temple sword (35000) will further increase your damage and accuracy. +5 is in reach at that level (50000) on the sword but AoMF +5 (100000) not so much.
Even at level 20 when you base damage is 2d10 (or at 16 with the robe) the extra damage from the higher enchant will make the sword more viable and combined with power attack (+10 vs. +15 at 16th, or +12 vs. +18 at 20th) you will see a noticeble difference. Espcially when you can enchant your sword with up to +10 effects but the AoMF is limited to +5.
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Generally for a Monk Getting Arcane strike is a good thing via Qinggong or racial SLA for a Monk. Another route is Dragon style/ferocity style feats. I would try for the first 2 before grabbing power attack IMO.Depends on what you want to do. Dragon Style only applies to unarmed strikes (and possibly a natural attack with Feral Combat Training), and carries more prereqs than Power Attack for most builds. If you're planning on going the Unarmed Strike route though, I agree, I'd probably go with Dragon Style.
What's nice is that you can combo them up and get the -1/+3 damage on your monk unarmed strikes.
No you can't. Dragon Style does not make you unarmed strikes two-handed. It does give you a specific 1.5 STR bonus on your first unarmed strike per round and an additional .5 str bonus on all unarmed strikes per round. While that is functionally the same damage bonus as a two-handed weapon, unarmed strikes are still light weapons and will only give you -1/+2 on Power Attack.
Dragon style doesn't affect power attack at all.
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I still don't see how you Flurry with 2 hands on a weapon.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
I take "as if using the Two-weapon fighting feat." as you can not 2 hand anything because when you normally use 2 weapon fighting you can't 2 hand both weapons. But if there is some goofy way to break the rules these forums will come up with a way.
What races are allowed?
What books are allowed?
What is the point buy?
Well I piked aasimar plumekith.
Any book with approval but heavily favoring PF.25 point buy.
Why take power attack when dragon style is there to eat up your feats? It just gives more. Later on at 7th WF becomes what one would get to increase your hit. 9th maybe, but arcane strike is better without the to hit problems.
Basically as a monk your hit is the weak point, you are a TWF and start off at -2 to hit, because of MAD, strength is probably 16 maybe 14, your weapon increases cost more.
There are so many things going against a monk for hit, it's the thing to shore up as much and as fast as possible. The rare time when it will make sense, you could be using something you can make use of every time - this will give you better mileage.
I was actually thinking power attack with dragon style.
I still don't see how you Flurry with 2 hands on a weapon.
I take "as if using the Two-weapon fighting feat." as you can not 2 hand anything because when you normally use 2 weapon fighting you can't 2 hand both weapons. But if there is some goofy way to break the rules these forums will come up with a way.Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
It is not breaking a rule. It is explicitely stated in the last FAQ about the flurry of blow FAQ fiasco. So, it is a long story but it is legal.
I was actually thinking power attack with dragon style.
That case it woudl not be that good since unarmed strikes are harder to enchant than a temple sword, also no furious focus. Only use power attack when you are facing moob or heavy buffed, that is my advice.
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Depends on what you want to do. Dragon Style only applies to unarmed strikes (and possibly a natural attack with Feral Combat Training), and carries more prereqs than Power Attack for most builds. If you're planning on going the Unarmed Strike route though, I agree, I'd probably go with Dragon Style.
What's nice is that you can combo them up and get the -1/+3 damage on your monk unarmed strikes.No you can't. ***
Dragon style doesn't affect power attack at all.
I would disagree.
You can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on unarmed strike damage.
For further reference on rulings regarding what counts as augmenting an unarmed strike
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It is explicitely stated in the last FAQ about the flurry of blow FAQ fiasco.Can you point me to the FAQ and official Piazo Errata ruling on it? I like to check the official ruling and not just the general consensus of a online argument.
No offense or anything.
FAQ .
Monk Weapons that are 2-handed weapons: Quarterstaff, Monk's Spade, Sansetsukon, Tiger Fork, Bo Staff, Double-chained Kama, Kusarigama, Kyoketsu Shoge, Seven-branched Sword
Evidence would indicate that you can absolutely two-hand a weapon while flurrying, as there are a number of weapons that are specifically two-handed and marked as being viable weapons for a flurry.
I still don't see how you Flurry with 2 hands on a weapon.
I take "as if using the Two-weapon fighting feat." as you can not 2 hand anything because when you normally use 2 weapon fighting you can't 2 hand both weapons. But if there is some goofy way to break the rules these forums will come up with a way.Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Actually, it's specifically mentioned in the base monk ability: Flurry of Blows...
Fourth paragraph starts:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
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It is explicitely stated in the last FAQ about the flurry of blow FAQ fiasco.Can you point me to the FAQ and official Piazo Errata ruling on it? I like to check the official ruling and not just the general consensus of a online argument.
No offense or anything.
FAQ link Since you can make all attacks with a single weapon, there is nothing stopping you from using that weapon in two hands. Flurry of Blos overrides the two handed damage bonus for STR, but it is still a two-handed weapon and qualifies for the power attack damage, even if it is being used in one hand per this FAQ.
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Actually, it's specifically mentioned in the base monk ability: Flurry of Blows...Fourth paragraph starts:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
...And the svirfneblin brings it in with a slam dunk! Who knew those stubby little legs could get that kind of air?
I still don't see how you Flurry with 2 hands on a weapon.
I take "as if using the Two-weapon fighting feat." as you can not 2 hand anything because when you normally use 2 weapon fighting you can't 2 hand both weapons. But if there is some goofy way to break the rules these forums will come up with a way.Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.
Actually, it's specifically mentioned in the base monk ability: Flurry of Blows...
Fourth paragraph starts:
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
This too is pretty conclusive.
No you can't. Dragon Style does not make you unarmed strikes two-handed. It does give you a specific 1.5 STR bonus on your first unarmed strike per round and an additional .5 str bonus on all unarmed strikes per round. While that is functionally the same damage bonus as a two-handed weapon, unarmed strikes are still light weapons and will only give you -1/+2 on Power Attack.
Dragon style doesn't affect power attack at all.
I think the argument here is due to the fact that the unarmed strike is also considered a natural attack. And power attack has a clause discussing natural attacks that get 1.5xstr bonus. Not necessarily agreeing with this logic (although...but desire for power does like it), I'm just saying it is not unfounded. (oh, ninja'd)
And dragon style feats are a bit weird any way. I mean, with the thing I brought up above: even if you followed that line of though, it would not affect the bonuses on the hits affected by the second feat, since that doesn't give you 1.5x str....but an additional .5x on top of your 1x str bonus.......
Anyway, with all this discussion, how do people feel about the sohei in all this? It is a monk archetype that gets a bit of weapon training to help with accuracy and access to light armored flurry due to a FAQ. With furious focus to cover non-flurry attacks, and the false full BAB of flurry for full attacks, would they work well with power attack? Particularly since they can do it with reach weapons.
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***Anyway, with all this discussion, how do people feel about the sohei in all this? It is a monk archetype that gets a bit of weapon training and access to light armored flurry due to a FAQ. With furious focus to cover non-flurry attacks, and the false full BAB of flurry for full attacks, would they work well with power attack?
Their Weapon Training would help compensate for the penalties, so yeah, they'd get solid use out of Power Attack. Considering their facility with mounted combat they may have more reason to take PA than just about any other monk archetype.
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Anyway, with all this discussion, how do people feel about the sohei in all this? It is a monk archetype that gets a bit of weapon training and access to light armored flurry due to a FAQ. With furious focus to cover non-flurry attacks, and the false full BAB of flurry for full attacks, would they work well with power attack?
It would work, as The weapon Training/Gloves of Dueling let you add more accuracy, and Furious Focus makes sure the first hit will hit hard.
I also think the Sensei would be a good power attack user, as they have Inspire Courage to help accuracy, and being wisdom primary, they will likely have a higher attack stat than most monks due to being SAD vs MAD.
Ever since the FAQ about them and armor, I always felt sohei were the easiest monks to work with when you are not a master optimizer. I mean, if you grabbed armor expert, they could even grab a mithral breastplate without any problems.
And heck, they would do well even when using normal unarmed strikes, since they can grab brawling armor. Combined with weapon training/gloves of dueling, they can do fairly well for themselves, even when dealing with all that trouble with AoMF.
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Anyway, with all this discussion, how do people feel about the sohei in all this? It is a monk archetype that gets a bit of weapon training and access to light armored flurry due to a FAQ. With furious focus to cover non-flurry attacks, and the false full BAB of flurry for full attacks, would they work well with power attack?
It would work, as The weapon Training/Gloves of Dueling let you add more accuracy, and Furious Focus makes sure the first hit will hit hard.
I also think the Sensei would be a good power attack user, as they have Inspire Courage to help accuracy, and being wisdom primary, they will likely have a higher attack stat than most monks due to being SAD vs MAD.
Sensei is still stuck in 3/4 BAB since they give up flurry though, and he doesn't have a lot of reason to invest in STR. I guess the possibility exists that there is a worthwhile way to do it, but it seems like a waste of the stat consolidation you get from the archetype to try and scrape for damage with PA. You're better off using that BA wisdom to squueze more mystical goodness out.
Weapon Adept could be a halfway decent option for PA, and maybe Monk of the Sacred Mountain who can pump STR and let DEX slip?
There are any monk weapon with range?
ok, thanks.
There are any monk weapon with range?Range or Reach?
If you want range, Shuriken, Wushu Darts, Lungchuan Tamo, Dan Bong, and the Rope Dart. Although the real answer for a ranged monk is a Zen Archer with a Bow.
If you want reach, there is the Kyoketsu shoge and the Kusarigama.
Or a level 6 sohei. Their choices in weapon training are wide enough that you can easily grab your weapon of choice (pole arms are usually the better choice though).
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Dragon Style with Power Attack, works best with Feral Combat Training, as it turns a primary natural attack, into a primary natural attack, with x1.5 strength to damage, and thus, boosting the damage from Power Attack.
So, you have a Claw, that normally adds x1 Strength to damage, and would get a -1 to +2 from Power Attack, now gets a -1 to +3 from Power Attack.
Dragon Style with Power Attack, works best with Feral Combat Training, as it turns a primary natural attack, into a primary natural attack, with x1.5 strength to damage, and thus, boosting the damage from Power Attack.
So, you have a Claw, that normally adds x1 Strength to damage, and would get a -1 to +2 from Power Attack, now gets a -1 to +3 from Power Attack.
Doesn't power attack work with unarmed strike? We are starting at level 8 so I have a 1d10 punch claws would be lower.
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Doesn't power attack work with unarmed strike? We are starting at level 8 so I have a 1d10 punch claws would be lower.Dragon Style with Power Attack, works best with Feral Combat Training, as it turns a primary natural attack, into a primary natural attack, with x1.5 strength to damage, and thus, boosting the damage from Power Attack.
So, you have a Claw, that normally adds x1 Strength to damage, and would get a -1 to +2 from Power Attack, now gets a -1 to +3 from Power Attack.
Feral Combat Training would let you use your Monk Unarmed Strike Damage with your claws.
Another thing to consider is that a Monk's off-hand Unarmed Strikes are adjudicated as if they were main-hand, meaning they get 1x Str to damage and this also means they get full Power Attack bonus rather than half bonus (since they aren't considered off-hand attacks).
Ah, quite true. That is a nice 2x total for a full attack. And oddly, the 'no offhand' language is independently in both the flurry and unarmed strike abilities. But the latter is mostly only a concern for people dipping into monk (rangers being a rather nice choice for the main class).
Tiger Style + Power Attack is groovy for unarmed, however Two Handing a Temple Sword + Power Attack is more damage, which you can also use Tiger Style on so ends up being lots more damage.
I would always recommend Power Attack for a monk that retains Flurry of Blows, my spreadsheets show it is more damage at all levels in this case.
Honestly Power Attack is a feat tax for 90% of 3/4 BaB martials, and 100% of full-BaB martials.
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There are times when you are flanking, the enemy is prone, you're hasted, and you have heroism (or combinations thereof). Those are the times you wish you had flurry and power attack.
Also when flurrying you cannot 2h a temple sword. Well describe it how you wish, but it get's x1str and 1-2 PA
Flurry with a sansetsukon.
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Tiger Style makes Power Attack incredible for a monk, since [in my experience], you either have an AC that is so low it may as well be 10, or is so high that taking a -5 to AC is really nothing. Without it, Power Attack is still a decent choice, but it would probably be much less Binary than with most martials.