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I have thought this build out quite a bit and wanted to see if I could get some thoughts or tips on it.
The game is starting at level 5, but I have the build planned to level 19 or so. It's also worth noting that alignment restrictions were houseruled to allow monks to be neutral, but my build works anyway provided that you start lawful and become neutral before level 3.
Right now I'm Master of Many Styles 1/Unbreakable Fighter 1/Invulnerable Rager 3. I plan on staying Invulnerable Rager until level 20.
Human favored class barbarian (+1/2 level to superstition)
25 point buy:
Str: 20 (17 base, +2 race, +1 level)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 12
(The charisma is mainly for roleplay purposes. Normally I would make both cha and int 10 or make int 12... Or make cha 9 and int 10 and grab 14 dex. Or 7 cha and 9 int and 16 wis. Anyhow, I digress.)
Feats/Rage Powers:
1: Power Attack, Raging Vitality (has been retrained)
Monk: Stunning Fist, Crane Style
2: Fighter: Die Hard, Endurance
3: Stalwart
4: Superstition (Rage Power)
5: Extra Rage Power (Witch Hunter)
-----What I plan to take-----
6: Intimidating Glare (Rage Power)
7: Extra Rage Power (Animal Fury)
8: Ghost Rager (Rage Power)
9: Extra Rage Power (Spell Sunder)
10: Dragon Totem (Rage Power)
11: Improved Stalwart
12: Dragon Totem Resilience (Rage Power)
13: Extra Rage Power (Eater of Magic)
14: Dragon Totem Wings (Rage Power)
15: Extra Rage Power (Strength Surge)
16: Increased DR (Rage Power)
17: Extra Rage Power (Increased DR)
18: Increased DR (Rage Power)
19: Toughness?
20: ?
So this actually yields 26/- DR at level 20 (9 from Invulnerable Rager, 8 from fighting defensively with Crane Style and 3 ranks in acrobatics and using improved stalwart and taking a -2 to attack, 6 from dragon totem resilience, and 3 from increased DR) and the way HP is done, by level 20 (assuming no raging or items) I will have 256 HP.
I also get a +15 to all saves against spells and touch AC while raging (+6 for superstition and +9 from favored class; ghost rager applies this to touch AC while raging).
I plan on not wearing armor and only caring about my strength, wisdom, and constitution (in that order). I'm going to be using a scythe (+5 furious keen scythe of kill everything ever or something by level 20).
Right now at 5 I have 15 AC not raging, about 56 HP not raging, 5/- DR when fighting defensively, and I put out around 2d4+17 with a +8 to attack with full power attack and fighting defensively.
I'm taking level 1 in monk. This is not negotiable. My character's parents were killed by witches, or at least that's what she (yes, she) has been told. She was found hiding under a bed by some monks who raised her. She had a more chaotic nature than most monks, but she managed. They told her they think her parents were killed by a magic-user of some sort and refused to let her seek revenge, so she naturally snuck out and is doing that anyway. She has since been a conduit of good, hunting undead and evil magic-users hoping to find a clue about her parents' murderer.
One of her most telling quotes is 'To any evil-doers I might encounter, remember this; the only difference between me and a paladin is that I don’t have a silly code holding me back from killing every last one of you.'
There is only one trait allowed by the DM and they are predetermined ones. They basically allow you to pick a skill to become a class skill for you, gives you a +2 with it, and allows a reroll once per day. I picked perception.
Oh, and my role: put out enough damage to make things hate me and take it well enough to never die. You know, the normal stuff. I excel at fighting wizards and such too.
Dragon totem Resilience will give me 52 fire resistance at level 20 for whatever it's worth.
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I get why you took the Dragon Totem Chain, but I'd suggest for alternative the Beast totem chain. You lose 6 Dr, the fire Resistance, and the flight, but in exchange gain nice natural armor (another alternative damage mitigation), pounce (HUGE) and 2 more rage powers (since you won't need animal fury/intimidating glare).
Completely separate, you should grab reckless abandon. It gives you a significant boost to hit, and your main damage mitigation isn't your AC anyways. Plus beast totem cancels out its penalties.
Other goodies: Dazing/Stunning assault are amazing feats for full martials focusing with to hit bonuses
Weapon: remove a +1 and take courageous instead. This gives half it's enhancement bonus (+2, +3 when raging) to all your morale bonuses. Superstition and the strength Str/Con bonuses are morale! It's a huge boost.
Also, you need a 15 con to take raging vitality.
EDIT: I'd argue the Beast Totem is better than Dragon totem for your theme, because mages don't usually do damage that DR can negate, so it's better to be able to pounce onto them.
Is there any way to make this build tankier or better at killing the weavers of the black arts?
AKA shameless self bump.
Edit: Ah, thanks. The courageous bit I did not know about. That's pretty massive, especially since Ghost Rager is also morale.
I thought really hard about Beast vs Dragon. The extra two slots are what have me on the fence. Pounce is huge, but flight is pretty big too. 26 DR down to 20 DR feels like a big hit to me mostly just to pick up pounce and lose flight in the process. The fire resistance mixed with my +stupid high reflex saves would make me night invincible to the most common energy type in the game, and even if I fail the reflex save, I can try again for temp HP with Eater of Magic and still probably take no damage.
But the two freed slots are what's tempting me. I appreciate the input!
How are you planning on justifying the alignment requirements? Monks, except for martial artists, have to be Lawful and barbarians can't be Lawful.
In the first post I said "It's also worth noting that alignment restrictions were houseruled to allow monks to be neutral, but my build works anyway provided that you start lawful and become neutral before level 3."
It was kinda TL;DR, it's easy to miss.
Buy a ring of evasion, my level 12 barbarian did, and he's only failed one reflex save since buying it (he's 14 now). With your stupid high saves, evasion>resistance, especially since it's not restricted to fire only.
An excellent point, I briefly forgot those exist. That'll definitely be on my list of things to get. Also Boots of Speed. I'm not even sure if I'll invest in cloak of resistance past +1, and even that will end up going to pick up something else for that slot.
It's also worth pointing out that there's another martial that is going to be in the party that might go the beast totem route. That'll heavily influence my decision. I love the sound of Dragon Totem adding more to my saves, giving me lots and lots of Fire Resistance, and tacking on 6 DR. I'm not sure the entire Beast line is particularly attractive to me beyond pounce.
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I would actually argue for the full cloak +5. My barbarian has it and, it's what makes it so I never fail a save (almost) plus you can't always depend on raging, or the effect to be magical. My barbarian is 14, w/ raging saves (counting superstitious) hovering around 20 for will and reflex. My cloak gives me 25% of my saves. That's huge IMHO. Plus other cloak slots generally suck. Plus at the low levels Superstitious hurts almost as much as it helps. It's only a +2 to start off.
Noted. I'll probably shop around with items as I go, so these will be on my list of things I should keep in mind.
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Well all I can say is the average witch will eliminate you in less then a round. There's nothing in your build that will actually stop or even slow down a real witch and when you rage you make it easier for them to beat you.
Remember, the average Witch is built around supernatural abilities which ignore all (except for your superstition and that's an almost irrelevant bonus at 19th level) rage powers. A dedicated Witch will have Hex DC's in the high 30's to low 40's at this level with initiative bonuses of 15-20+. What this means is you'll almost never get a chance to rage to get those powers working and if you do you'll probably fail every save against that witch's Slumber (or Eternal Slumber) followed quickly with a CDG.
Against any other spellcaster this is a passable build but the witch will destroy you with little to know effort.
You also didn't take improved sunder so you'll be eating LOTS of Combat Manuever AoO's.
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Well all I can say is the average witch will eliminate you in less then a round. There's nothing in your build that will actually stop or even slow down a real witch and when you rage you make it easier for them to beat you.
Remember, the average Witch is built around supernatural abilities which ignore all (except for your superstition and that's an almost irrelevant bonus at 19th level) rage powers. A dedicated Witch will have Hex DC's in the high 30's to low 40's at this level with initiative bonuses of 15-20+. What this means is you'll almost never get a chance to rage to get those powers working and if you do you'll probably fail every save against that witch's Slumber (or Eternal Slumber) followed quickly with a CDG.
Against any other spellcaster this is a passable build but the witch will destroy you with little to [no] effort.You also didn't take improved sunder so you'll be eating LOTS of Combat Manuever AoO's.
The witch won't be nearly as effective as you claim. +18 from superstitious, +5 from the cloak, +2 from monk, +5ish from barbarian levels, that's already around a 30 for saves. He also gets a free reroll from eater of magic, and he can spell sunder control effects. Also, the spells he wants to sunder are generally keeping him away, so he won't provoke too many AoOs, plus most casters don't exactly specialize in getting past 20+ DR.
I guess you could say it does come down to initiative rolls, but I doubt it. You'd have to have a hideously optimized with to get an initiative that high, and only killer GMs would do that outright witch goes first, you're out of the fight, style of play.
My saves at level 20 will be Fort: +40 = 14 + 6 + 5 + 15, Ref: +29 = 8 + 1 + 5 + 15, Will: +33 = 8 + 2 + 5 + 15 + 3. I can rage cycle, so I get to roll again if I fail and get temporary HP every round. And even if I still fail a reflex save, my weakest, I have fire resistance 52 and 300ish HP. All with no stat boosting items.
Base should be right. I didn't include any items besides the cloak of resistance to sort of illustrate my point. Also, I don't care about AoOs with my 26/- DR. Especially from any witch.
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Base should be right. I didn't include any items besides the cloak of resistance to sort of illustrate my point. Also, I don't care about AoOs with my 26/- DR. Especially from any witch.
Oops I totally did the base wrong. I meant to say 6 higher than the will.
Fort: 14 Base+ 5rage con bonus+15superstitious+3 courageous+base con (at least a 15 so +2)=39, but probably much higher as you level. I didn't even add the cloak of resistance.
Will: 7 base+2 base wis+15 supersititous+3 courageous+5 cloak = 32 (2 from monk, 5 from barbarian, next level it hits 8 base). Once you factor in a headband+6, other potential bonuses, luck bonuses, etc, he can hit 35-40.
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Well all I can say is the average witch will eliminate you in less then a round. There's nothing in your build that will actually stop or even slow down a real witch and when you rage you make it easier for them to beat you.
Remember, the average Witch is built around supernatural abilities which ignore all (except for your superstition and that's an almost irrelevant bonus at 19th level) rage powers. A dedicated Witch will have Hex DC's in the high 30's to low 40's at this level with initiative bonuses of 15-20+. What this means is you'll almost never get a chance to rage to get those powers working and if you do you'll probably fail every save against that witch's Slumber (or Eternal Slumber) followed quickly with a CDG.
Against any other spellcaster this is a passable build but the witch will destroy you with little to [no] effort.You also didn't take improved sunder so you'll be eating LOTS of Combat Manuever AoO's.
The witch won't be nearly as effective as you claim. +18 from superstitious, +5 from the cloak, +2 from monk, +5ish from barbarian levels, that's already around a 30 for saves. He also gets a free reroll from eater of magic, and he can spell sunder control effects. Also, the spells he wants to sunder are generally keeping him away, so he won't provoke too many AoOs, plus most casters don't exactly specialize in getting past 20+ DR.
I guess you could say it does come down to initiative rolls, but I doubt it. You'd have to have a hideously optimized with to get an initiative that high, and only killer GMs would do that outright witch goes first, you're out of the fight, style of play.
20th level games are rocket tag games where going first means everything but it doesn't really take that much to beat this build on speed.
First, it's not +18 it's +15 since he didn't go full barbarian he doesn't get full bonus, he also doesn't want the full cloak making his will save only +24ish. Not enough to beat a equivalent witch.
Second, he has no initiative boosting anything so he's at a basic +2 init (throw on all the items we can find and he might hit +6ish) while a witch with 1 feat, a trait and a familiar will be at least +10 before Dex, items and spells. It's almost impossible for the barb to go first which means his will save drop down to +10 vs at least a DC 25 but most likely a DC 30 save or die.
I see this fight as going like this: Fight starts, Witch goes first with a quickened or familiar wand-ed (ill omen (no save) followed by a split Slumber hex (targeting the Barb and the next most martial character there). The only real question is which way the witch is going to kill the Barbarians, CDG's are boring by this point.
Edit: Oh and he doesn't have DR that high or anywhere near that much Elemental resistance.
Remember, the Invulnerable Rager doesn't have Barbarian DR so it doesn't qualify for the stacking DR/Energy Resistance from ANY of the other rage powers.
I believe this drops the DR by about 10 and totally removes the energy resistance.
So, I like your build. As others have said
"you need a 15 con to take raging vitality."
A few suggestions: have you considered going half-orc(shamans apprentice) for the free endurance, then take die-hard, this will eliminate the need for taking a level in fighter. Get that DR, that much faster.
Also, you need to switch #3 & #5, as you can't take stalwart without BAB+4.IMO, the dragon totem line & company is pretty much your room to play with this build, you could take beast totem and retain some feats, as has been suggested, or you could use any of the other options for making a good Barb.
I plan on playing a similar build, as human with racial heritage(halfling), cautious fighter & EWP (madu) from UC. Quite similar to your build.
I don't understand the point of bringing in a caster to "Beat" him. Any class with UMD & a maze scroll should work, that's right this includes Rogues(is that the point? To win...).
There are many difficult opponents for him to face, I have a hard time believing he'll make a save against a dragon's frightful presence or any FP(Ex.).
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Actually, now that I look at this build a bit closer I see LOTS of mistakes.
First, Crane style doesn't add to your DR, only your AC. So this actually yields 12/- DR at level 20 (9 from Invulnerable rager, 3 from improved DR rage powers, the Dragon totem powers doesn't work with the Rager's invulnerability).
Crane Style requires 1 hand free so you can't really use the Scythe unless you want to let it go every round and rely on your bite for AoO's.
Dragon Totem Resilience requires the barbarian damage reduction class ability to work so you don't get any of the Elemental Resistances or any of the DR boost from this.
Spell Sunder is nice but without the Sunder feats you're limited to just suppressing/removing a spell effect. You can't roll over any damage to the target and (more importantly) every point of damage you take is applied as a penalty to the combat maneuver check. A moderately prepared defender with a decent attack can actually make you fail the sunder check.
@AM CANON, Not criticizing, merely pointing out where he has made mistakes building his character and how his chosen opponent's will treat him.
If you state your character is designed to do one thing (kill Witches) and come to the board and ask for thoughts and tips on it this is what you get.
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1. The extra +3 comes from the courageous weapon enchant ment. Oh an he did want the full cloak +5. I'm also not accessing all the various magic items to further boost a save.
2. I need to look it up (I'm on mobile) but I think there's a way, feat maybe, to activate rage when it's not your turn.
3. DR. I'm firmly in the camp that interprets the invulnerability as stacking with the dragon totem and improved Dr stuff, going of the spear training-weapon training precedent. If all else fails, I'm fairly sure since it's a home campaign the GM can and would simply house rule it.
4. Full casters require a ton of system mastery, especially at high level play. I can't find a way to get a witch hex DC past 34 with a base 20 int, +5 level, +5 tome, +6 headband, and ability focus.
Edit: Stalwart allows you to convert the fighting defensively bonus to DR. Crane style does convert since it modifies the fighting defensively bonus. The crane style bonus to fighting defensively doesn't require 2 hands. Heck the base style feat does even mention needing open hands.
If you want to help don't just throw a fully system masteried full caster at his character without even suggesting ways to improve it. Yes casters are gods at this level.
You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.
Where does it say I have to have a hand free?
While using the total defense action, fighting defensively action, or Combat Expertise, you can forgo the dodge bonus to AC you would normally gain to instead gain an equivalent amount of DR, to a maximum of DR 5/—, until the start of your next turn. This damage reduction stacks with DR you gain from class features, such as the barbarian's, but not with DR from any other source. If you are denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, you are also denied this DR.
This is why Crane Style adds to DR.
Also, there have been rulings that abilities can still be treated as their standard version. Like the dragoon's spear training that is treated as weapon training for effects that modify it. Like the duelist gloves. Seems applicable to me here. It changes the power and the name but it is still similar enough in what it does that it can be treated as the original ability.
And...
The following rage powers complement the invulnerable rager archetype: come and get me, guarded life, increased damage reduction*, inspire ferocity, reckless abandon, and renewed vigor*.
Emphasis mine.
Aaaaand I posted here to have people help me pick apart the build, not so everyone can praise me about how awesome I did at making a Witch Hunter.
Oh, also (Because you mentioned it, Kiinyan) this will probably be in my headband slot.
Once per day when the wearer is attacked or has to make a saving throw against a hostile effect, she may spend 2 rounds of rage to begin a rage as an immediate action.
This rage becomes active prior to resolving the attack that triggered it and lasts until the start of her next turn (at which time she may continue to rage as if she had begun the rage in the normal manner).
Again, you should have fun with this character right from the start. Enjoy
Mighty Beowulf.
Appreciated. I've appreciate the criticism so far. Should be one of the more fun martial characters I've had. I wasn't trying to say that I was literally built simply to kill witches. I called myself a Witch Slayer for flavor reasons anyway.
Never meant to rustle anyone's jimmies.
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@kiinyan,We were dissecting the build not the gear, that was left undefined besides the scythe and the +1 cloak. If it's not listed it doesn't matter. As for the rage on someone else's turn, again it's not listed so is irrelevant to the build as posted.
Relying on a house rule that goes against the printed word is always a bad idea without explicit comments from the GM. Trying to design a build on hoping that the GM will accept your interpretation is generally frowned upon, ESPECIALLY when it makes such a massive difference (making the PC immune to all normally wielded weapons in the game is almost always going to be met with a heck no from most GM's).
Finally, if the player wants to bring a PC that's as powerful as the OP believes his design is then they should expect to face opponents as potent as they are. A good GM keeps the challenges equal to the party, otherwise the game is boring.
@Beowulf, Always mix up crane wing and crane style, that's my bad.
As for the DR issue Dragoon really is a poor example. That ability states it doesn't gain weapon training in any other weapon group, implying it does still keep weapon training with spears.
The Invulnerable Rager specifies it replaces Damage Reduction with Invulnerability, very different examples. At the very least you should explain this to your GM before even thinking of using it.
Oh and the improved DR rage power was included, it unlike the Dragon Totem doesn't state it affects Barbarian DR, it's a blanket plus to all kinds of DR.
The headband is nice but requires a an immediate action to activate and per the rules of immediate actions:
You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
putting you right back where you were at the beginning, any caster who beats you on an initiative check destroys you in 1 round. The normal Barbarian has uncanny dodge making him immune to being flat footed the invulnerable rage traded that away so initiative becomes doubly important for this kind of Barbarian.
Your initiative is too low and will be the death of your Barbarian, fix that first or you'll never survive your first encounter with a smart caster.There is a reason that EVERY caster guide has put buffing your initiative as the number one priority, if you go first you just win.
Oh and to not come off as completely negative here's a hint for you. Learn to expect this spell constantly and prepare for it.
Emergency Force Field, just about every wizard out there keeps one in his pocket for builds like yours.
In a normal game I would take the Defensive Strategist trait probably then.
You aren't flat-footed during a surprise round that you don't get to act in or before you get to act at the start of a battle.
Also fits with religious flavor. I like the trait, it's a shame I can't have it in this homebrew.
The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging.
While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.
Emphasis mine. If it counts for one, it counts for the other. That's all I'm saying.
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In a normal game I would take the Defensive Strategist trait probably then.
You aren't flat-footed during a surprise round that you don't get to act in or before you get to act at the start of a battle.Also fits with religious flavor. I like the trait, it's a shame I can't have it in this homebrew.
The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging.While raging, the barbarian gains resistance to the energy type that is associated with her dragon totem—acid (black, copper, green), cold (silver, white), electricity (blue, bronze), or fire (brass, gold, red). This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.Emphasis mine. If it counts for one, it counts for the other. That's all I'm saying.
Yeah, that's always been a somewhat brokenly OP trait, many GM's ban it for just that reason.
The first one simply states the Barbarian's DR increases by 1, the second one directly references the specific class feature. As long as you are a barbarian your DR goes up by 1 (even if you currently don't have DR since the Devs have ruled all creatures have DR 0) if you take that rage power under general rule of the game. Dragon Totem is specific and only affects the DR from that class ability so it doesn't stake with the DR from other sources like adamantine armor or certain spells. Can you imagine how insane it could get if that exception wasn't in place?
Also, I never got around to responding to the fact that I'm 1 Con from meeting the prereq for Raging Vitality. I can make my Cha 10 and my Con 15, but that would make me sad.
Yeah, that's always been a somewhat brokenly OP trait, many GM's ban it for just that reason.
If it's OP, then evidently witches should be banned as a whole.
Literally the difference in the wording is 'class feature'. If you say 'Fighter's weapon training' instead of 'Fighter's weapon training class feature', what does that mean? And since it's been shown that Increased DR works with Invulnerability, it's safe to say it works with anything that says 'barbarian DR'
As a side note, if it worked by just adding to the barbarian's DR, would it also add to my DR/silver I have for whatever reason? I'm a barbarian and it is DR, right?
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Yeah, that's always been a somewhat brokenly OP trait, many GM's ban it for just that reason.If it's OP, then evidently witches should be banned as a whole.
Literally the difference in the wording is 'class feature'. If you say 'Fighter's weapon training' instead of 'Fighter's weapon training class feature, what does that mean? And since it's been shown that Increased DR works with Invulnerability, it's safe to say it works with anything that says 'barbarian DR'
As a side note, if it worked by just adding to the barbarian's DR, would it also add to my DR/silver I have for whatever reason? I'm a barbarian and it is DR, right?
There's a reason I said many GM's not the game itself. Witches are actually one of the weakest full arcane casters (mechanically), they just have the ability to super specialize on certain hard to oppose powers. Wiz/Sorc are still stronger overall.
Weapon Training is a specific class feature and almost always refers back to the fighter class ability (barring the poorly worded Rogue Talent). Damage Reduction refers to a specific game term that has it's own meaning.
While all Barbarian Damage Reduction class features refer to the DR mechanic not all DR mechanics refer to the Barbarian Class feature. Your example of DR/silver is a prime example of this difference.
Now arguing about the intent of the Dragon Resilience power then it will inevitably go to the intent that it was never intended to increase ANY DR at all.
From the wording of the power many readers are stating that it was intended to just increase the Energy resistance not the actual damage reduction at all.
This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.
As you can see this is one single sentence referencing the Energy resistance granted by this totem. The DR is only there to determine what the final Energy Resistance is. The intent that it only increase the barbarians DR for purposes of determining the final energy resistance total is just as valid as anything else presented here.
This is an argument that's been going around forever so the prudent option is to check with your GM to see what interpretation flies at their table. I usually choose to expect the most restrictive choice but there is no guarantee of any idea until the GM rules.
How do you get 8 DR from fighting defensively with Crane Style?
How do you get 8 DR from fighting defensively with Crane Style?
Nevermind, I figured it out.
There's a couple of problems that I have with this build and its my general problem with the general concept of "builds." Please spare me the Stormwind "hand to the face". It's a dismissive and often defensive "out". With that said:
First, he starts as a monk, which requires a lawful alignment. Then, he multiclasses into barbarian, which requires a nonlawful alignment. So, somewhere there's an alignment change, I'm assuming its not because of some in-game,roleplaying reason but only to proceed with the build.
In addition, if he's trained as a monk, assuming he lived according to the monastic life style and thus, having a lawful alignment, how did he suddenly become barbaric after all that time in a monastery and how did he become "non-lawful"?
Read the original post and the thread. This is answered twice.
There's also issues with having power attack as a first level monk. He required a +1 BAB. Monks start off with a +0 BAB.
It works with retraining, which should have been specified, I admit.
Crane style requires Dodge as a prerequisite.
This seems valid, because I'm fairly sure the "or monk level 1st" only replaces the need for BAB +2.
I don't think the specifics of the retraining of Raging Vitality were posted. What did he have before the retraining? What was his actual first level build? As it stands, I don't see how the first level of the build was possible.
It doesn't have to be posted, because it's not relevant anymore. That's the point of retraining. He could have taken literally any prerequisite-less feat like Toughness or whatever and it would have worked fine.