Protection from Evil?!?

[Lavode de'Morcaine]

Ok, I’m seeing a lot of difference in how protection from evil is judged/ruled. From all the way to only useful in a few corner cases to way overpowered for a 1st level spell. I personally don’t really care what it is, just so I can count on it doing that. In one case I think it is sufficient protection but it gives virtually nothing. But if I use that definition, then the next time I have overlapped 3 protections needlessly.

Stops all compulsions
Stops compulsions from evil casters
Stops only things that actually take you over like dominate
Stops only things like dominate from evil outsiders
Stops only compulsions delivered by touch attack
Stops illusions that are affecting the mind (would have a will save)
Stops confusion since it takes away your ability to decide
Does not stop confusion since the caster can’t control the actions
Stops charm/suggestion because the caster now has some measure of control over you
Does not stop charm/suggestion since the caster doesn’t control your actions just adjusted your attitude a little bit
Etc…

I have heard all of these over the last couple of years at PFS and 2 home groups.

Can someone tell me if there is some definitive list or clear rule of what does or does not get blocked by Protection From Evil?

I’ve found several different argument threads that have no real decisions. But I’ve been told ‘It was decided’ but everyone seems to have a different idea of what was decided.

[Claxon]

.

[anthonydido]

OK, lets knock the easiest ones out first.

Quote:

Stops only compulsions delivered by touch attack

The only mention of touch attacks in the spell description is concerning summoned creatures so this is false.

Quote:

Stops illusions that are affecting the mind (would have a will save)

There is nothing in the spell description that says anything about illusions so this is false.

OK, now to the rest.

Quote:

Stops all compulsions

Stops only things that actually take you over like dominate

No, the spell clearly says it only blocks things from evil creatures. There is also a FAQ that says as much:

FAQ wrote:

Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?

No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil.

Quote:

Stops compulsions from evil casters

Stops only things like dominate from evil outsiders
Stops confusion since it takes away your ability to decide
Does not stop confusion since the caster can’t control the actions
Stops charm/suggestion because the caster now has some measure of control over you
Does not stop charm/suggestion since the caster doesn’t control your actions just adjusted your attitude a little bit
Etc…

There is a FAQ for these as well:

FAQ wrote:

Protection From Evil: Does this work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or just against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")

In the future you'd be better off checking the FAQ's before browsing the forums.

[Nefreet]

^ beat me to it

[Lifat]

I don't think there has been any official response on this subject. But some of the list you have, can clearly be answered using only the spell's description.

First: The deflection and resistance bonus clearly only works against effects from evil creatures.
The second effect of protection against certain control effects also only works against evil creatures. The spell CLEARLY states that.
The third effect where it wards you against evil summoned creatures are also very clear.

The thing we can have some doubts about is: What counts as "possessing or exercise mental control"...
So your list:

1. Stops all compulsions:
No. The effect is only against evil creatures.

2. Stops compulsions from evil casters:
Debatable. Some will say that certain compulsions don't fall into the category of posses or exercise control.

3. Stops only things that actually take you over like dominate:
No. The spell gives examples and one of those are charm, which means being able to influence is enough to trigger the protection. (again only as long as the caster is evil)

4. Stops only things like dominate from evil outsiders:
No. The spell makes no requirements that the caster has to be an outsider. It is enough that the caster has an evil alignment. Which npc has an evil alignment is up to the GM though.

5. Stops only compulsions delivered by touch attack:
HUH???? oO? Of course not. Protection from evil specifically calls out 3 spells that it works against and none of those spells are touch attacks.

6. Stops illusions that are affecting the mind (would have a will save):
Debatable. Protection from evil mentions enchantment (charm) and enchantment (compulsions) but doesn't state that those are the only schools. I think which spells outside of those would be up to the GM tbh.

7. Stops confusion since it takes away your ability to decide:
EDIT: Apparently answered in a FAQ. Protection from evil does NOT stop confusion because it exercises no control over the subject.

8./9. Stops charm/suggestion because the caster now has some measure of control over you:
Protection from evil obviously works against charm person (or monster) because protection from evil SPECIFICALLY calls out the spell. I think most people would agree that suggestion is enough like charm person that protection from evil should protect against that too. Again... It only works against evil casters.

[Hendelbolaf]

In defense of the original poster the FAQ is a little scattered and hard to find if you do not know exactly how to use it. It really took me a while to find it under the CRB entry and then each book has it's separate FAQ. Not an efficient way of looking for information at all even if you use the search function.

However, yes, it is always a good idea to try a search before you post as you may find endless threads on certain topics with or without answers and resolutions.

[anthonydido]

Hendelbolaf wrote:

In defense of the original poster the FAQ is a little scattered and hard to find if you do not know exactly how to use it. It really took me a while to find it under the CRB entry and then each book has it's separate FAQ. Not an efficient way of looking for information at all even if you use the search function.

However, yes, it is always a good idea to try a search before you post as you may find endless threads on certain topics with or without answers and resolutions.

Yes, it can be. Especially if you don't know what book the ability in question is from. The CRB FAQ is usually a good place to start though.

[Lifat]

Quote:

Stops illusions that are affecting the mind (would have a will save)

Quote:

There is nothing in the spell description that says anything about illusions so this is false.

I disagree with you on this. Protection from evil's wording on this is:

"against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects," Against ANY spell or effect, means that any spell or effect that posses or exercise mental control. It then goes on to list examples. But just because illusion isn't mentioned as an example doesn't mean that they have been excluded.
Personally speaking I think I would indeed houserule that it doesn't work against illusion spells but I can't point to the rules and say that it is RAW. I could make a case that it is RAI though.

[anthonydido]

You could make the argument only if the illusion somehow allowed the caster to control the target but I don't know of any such spells.

I was mainly commenting on it as a general overall statement.

Edit: Illusions are mind-affecting. There is a difference between mind-affecting and charm/compulsion.

[Orfamay Quest]

Lifat wrote:

Against ANY spell or effect, means that any spell or effect that posses or exercise mental control. It then goes on to list examples. But just because illusion isn't mentioned as an example doesn't mean that they have been excluded.

Personally speaking I think I would indeed houserule that it doesn't work against illusion spells but I can't point to the rules and say that it is RAW. I could make a case that it is RAI though.

But illusions do not generally exercise mental control. It doesn't single out the evocation school as not being protected against, either. That's not because of the school, but because evocation spells don't involve control. Nothing screams "out of control" like a fireball. <evil grin>

Will saves don't necessarily mean "mental control"; confusion is singled out as a spell requiring a Will save that does not involve mental control. Creating an illusion of a blank floor covering an actual pit similarly does not involve mental control.

Which illusion spell did you have in mind that excercised "control"?

[Lifat]

I had no specific illusion spells in mind. I'm not even saying that an illusion spell that exercises mental control of any kind even exists. I'm simply saying that if such a spell DOES exist, then by RAW protection from evil would protect against it (assuming all other requirements are met).

[Orfamay Quest]

Further to previous. I would suggest that sanctuary, despite being an abjuration spell, should be protected against by protection from evil, because it "controls" you to the extent that you are not allowed to attack the caster.

[anthonydido]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Further to previous. I would suggest that sanctuary, despite being an abjuration spell, should be protected against by protection from evil, because it "controls" you to the extent that you are not allowed to attack the caster.

I think that may be pushing it a little. It doesn't "control" you so much as it "prevents" you. The same attacker could still step back and cast an AoE on the target if they wanted.

[Lifat]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Further to previous. I would suggest that sanctuary, despite being an abjuration spell, should be protected against by protection from evil, because it "controls" you to the extent that you are not allowed to attack the caster.

My point exactly. If we follow RAW, then way may indeed run into a few spells from other schools than enchantment that would be protected against.

I think I'd houserule that it only works on spells with the "compulsion" and/or "charm" descriptors, just to stop all the discussion about individual spells that might come up.

[Lavode de'Morcaine]

Thanks folks.

[Ascalaphus]

Most illusion spells are not actually mind-affecting; in general only [phantasm] illusions will affect the mind. Most illusions require Will saves, even for [glamer] and [figment] spells that are definitely not IN the mind.

And not even all [phantasm] illusions would count. For example, Phantasmal Killer is a [mind-affecting][phantasm] spell, but it doesn't exercise control of any kind.

An example of an illusion that Protection from [the right alignment] might help against is Illusory Script, which sends a Suggestion into the mind.

[Orfamay Quest]

Ascalaphus wrote:

An example of an illusion that Protection from [the right alignment] might help against is Illusory Script, which sends a Suggestion into the mind.

Good catch. Given that this spell explicitly calls out suggestion, I would indeed consider PoE to protect against it.

On a similar note, if Paizo produces a "Suggestive Spell" metamagic (modelled after the Dazing Spell feat), a Suggestive wall of fire should also be protected against. Even if Paizo hasn't created such a feat, I think I could build it using words of power: FIre Wall + Complex Order.

[Zog of Deadwood]

As long as we're on the subject of mind-affecting magics outside the school of Enchantment, what about magical Fear effects from an evil source? They are (for some bizarre reason) generally of the Necromantic school, but they do effect a level of mental control.

[Orfamay Quest]

I think fear fits into the "expect table variation" category. If sleep isn't protected against, why should fear be?

[Lifat]

Sleep and confusion isn't protected against either (see FAQ). I think fear falls into the category of "The caster doesn't actually influence your actions, he simply gives you a condition that determines your actions".