Wildshape, Whirlwind, a Druid and a headache

[marcusuperbus]

Here is the situation: a Druid uses Wildshape to transform into a Large Air Elemental as per the spell Elemental Body III, then uses the Elemental ability to assume Whirlwind form.

The key sentence under the Whirlwind (Su) ability is: "Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space."

When the Druid/Whirlwind is attacked and hit, does the attacker need to make a a Reflex save to avoid being caught in the Whirlwind? Or does the whirlwind need to move into him in order to pick him up?

And if the attacker does need to make a Reflex save, would he have to do that every time he hits, if he has more than one attack? Or would one save be enough, since most abilities only have to be saved against once per round.

Here's the Whirlwind ability for reference, Elemental Body and the Whirlwind spell were other places I checked for clues:

Whirlwind (Su)

Some creatures can transform themselves into whirlwinds and remain in that form for up to 1 round for every 2 HD they have. If the creature has a fly speed, it can continue to fly at that same speed while in whirlwind form; otherwise it gains a fly speed equal to its base land speed (average maneuverability) while in whirlwind form.

The whirlwind is always 5 feet wide at its base, but its height and width at the top vary from creature to creature (minimum 10 feet high). A whirlwind’s width at its peak is always equal to half of its height. The creature controls the exact height, but it must be at least 10 feet high.

The whirlwind form does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the creature enters the space another creature occupies. Another creature might be caught in the whirlwind if it touches or enters the whirlwind, or if the whirlwind moves into or through the creature’s space. A creature in whirlwind form cannot make its normal attacks and does not threaten the area around it.

Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster’s HD + the monster’s Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful.

Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume. The whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes as a free action, depositing them in its space.

If the whirlwind’s base touches the ground, it creates a swirling cloud of debris. This cloud is centered on the creature and has a diameter equal to half the whirlwind’s height. The cloud obscures all vision, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. Creatures 5 feet away have concealment, while those farther away have total concealment. Those caught in the cloud of debris must succeed on a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell.

Format: whirlwind (3/day, 10–30 ft. high, 1d6+6 damage, DC 15); Location: Special Attacks.

[Taenia]

I interpret touch to mean anyone attacking or casting a spell with the touch range at the whirlwind or entering his square. If they hit then at that point they have to make 2 reflex saves, first to avoid damage, second to avoid being picked up by the whirlwind. I would assume each hit is a different interaction since there is no once per round clause in the feature.

Note large creatures would be immune to this effect unless the druid gains the powerful shape feat at which point huge and large would be immune.

Note once inside the whirlwind it has no special resistances or immunities to attacks, including strange situations where a person grapples the whirlwind and prevents it from moving.

[Lorenz Lang]

I agree with the interpretation of "it comes into contact" as
entering the space, attacking with a touch spell or unarmed attack.
I would allow weapon attacks without having to save.

Taenia wrote:

Note large creatures would be immune to this effect unless the druid gains the powerful shape feat at which point huge and large would be immune.

Note once inside the whirlwind it has no special resistances or immunities to attacks, including strange situations where a person grapples the whirlwind and prevents it from moving.

Why would large creatures be immune?

"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught"

So, isn't it the whirlwind's size, not the elemental's?
The whirlwind from a large elemental is up to 40 ft. high,
so it's within the 32' to 64 ft. category of gargantuan (tall).

The second point is giving me headaches too...
Grappling or pinning a whirlwind seems strange.

[Taenia]

So Whirlwind only works on creatures one or more size categories smaller than you. So a large creature vs. a large elemental would be immune to the whirlwind.

With powerful shape you could pick up large creatures, as long as they fit in the volume of your whirlwind, huge creature and larger (my error in the post) would be immune.

So the question is what is the size of the whirlwind? The only size category we have to base this off of is that of the elemental, as there is no size category for a whirlwind.

In game, I think of it as smaller whirlwinds do not have the same wind "force" as larger elemental, even if their whirlwind is the same size. So a small elemental can't pick up a medium or small creature because its winds aren't fast enough. It is like the smaller the elemental the slower the wind is within the appropriate wind category.

[Lorenz Lang]

Taenia wrote:

So Whirlwind only works on creatures one or more size categories smaller than you. So a large creature vs. a large elemental would be immune to the whirlwind.

With powerful shape you could pick up large creatures, as long as they fit in the volume of your whirlwind, huge creature and larger (my error in the post) would be immune.

That's another headache. Volume isn't a rules term.

Isn't it quite difficult to compute how many creatures can be caughtby the whirlwind?

Taenia wrote:

So the question is what is the size of the whirlwind? The only size category we have to base this off of is that of the elemental, as there is no size category for a whirlwind.

Why not deduce it from the height as I did above?

Taenia wrote:

In game, I think of it as smaller whirlwinds do not have the same wind "force" as larger elemental, even if their whirlwind is the same size. So a small elemental can't pick up a medium or small creature because its winds aren't fast enough. It is like the smaller the elemental the slower the wind is within the appropriate wind category.

If this is the official interpretation, I'm the last to argue it.

Whirlwind size equal to elemental size works for me.
It's still a powerful ability, almost or even slightly unbalanced IMO.

LL

[Taenia]

I totally agree, I have a character that specializes in whirlwind and combined with powerful shape let's him pick up large creatures at level 10.

So far HD has juggled 3 hill giants at once and once two stone golems. Party decided they didn't want to fight the stone golems so I released them into the wild.