These two in combination intrigue me, but I'm not sure how best to combo them for effectiveness - in terms of what classes and other periphery feats to take.
Seems to me that any goblin build with both of them is going to lean on Weapon Finesse and an Agile weapon, so lets presume that as a starting point. (or Monk and an Agile Might Fists amulet)
What's the best route to max this combo's potential? Any ideas?
I don't think it work. Don't think you can make acrobatic checks for the "roll with it" movement.
On a reexamination, I agree. I'm not abandoning the concept yet, though.
They're both great synergies with the Acrobatics skill, and a really twinked "roll with it" character might be able to dump CON on the expectation that any major damage he takes he'll be able to avoid.
If you're building around an agile weapon, you may also dump STR, presuming you can keep your encumbrance down. Goblins get +4 DEX. Presume we dump CHA (goblin yo!) you're talking 3 dump stats and 1 stat through the roof. That alone can produce some really effective builds.
So Magus stands out to me, since rapier is kind of an obvious choice for an agile weapon build and is also a Magus staple. Could work well with single swings after movement. Seems like a long way to go, though, since Magi are so feat starved anyway. It'd be nice to catch something where the tangle feet prereqs are bonus feats. That leads me to either Monk, or some kind of Fighter multiclass.
Ninja? Idk much about them.
I responded to the other posting, you got double posted so I flagged it for merging :P
But check out my suggestion, it's loose(Top of my head) but it might be helpful
master of many style can get you into panther style with combines with the AOO provoked by roll with it. Mobility + panther strike + roll with it then ask to your resident barbarian to use you as a "rolling cannonball of AOE destruction". Might be a fun concept for a oneshot.
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Monkey Style works with Roll With It.
To bypass the Staggered condition, you could go into(or dip) Cleric or Inquisitor for the Restoration Domain.
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Also remember that staggered really isn't a big deal until you get iterative attacks, you can still charge if you only have a single standard action, just only up to your movement rather than double movement. This tends to make me think you should try and build around a single, dangerous attack and not worry too much about iteratives unless you're able to follow BBTs advice.
Vital Striking MoMS Monk perhaps? (This would also incidentally give you a pretty amazing 'half charge' range as well).
Isn't restorative touch a standard action, though? If so, it doesn't really help the action economy any, since the staggered condition will go away in a round regardless.
Panther Style is intriguing. Roll With It doesn't state it can only be used once in a round. It's conceivable this build could go bouncing around the board two or three times, and with Panther Style could make attacks at a lot of different people along the way. That's wild.
I think an agile returning dagger could be a real winner here. You Tangle Feet someone, move away, throw the dagger, and they can't pursue without falling over. Repeat. Could allow you to easily solo large targets with poor acrobatics. The returning dagger also gives you something to do in the rounds you're staggered.
After a review of Ninja, I'm leaning that way, since any of the combat feat prereqs can be taken as ninja tricks. Now, how to cram Panther Style in there. Perhaps 1 level dip in Monk to get unarmed strike, WIS AC, and Combat Reflexes, while spending Ninja tricks on the other feat prereqs for Tangle Feet. Then apply the Scout rogue template to the levels of Ninja, which again allows precision dice damage on the partial charge during the staggered round.
Yes. That sounds nice.
How much CHA does this concept really need? If I'm going with the monk/ninja spread and leaning on agile weapons, I can dump STR and INT to dirt. If I presume I'm going to be able to avoid most damage with Roll With It, I can dump CON pretty low as well.
Oh this is cool:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
So if a ninja splashes one level of Monk, he can tie his wisdom to the ki pool instead of his charisma, which allows a third dump stat as long as he doesn't intend on picking up CHA based ninja tricks.
Very slick, and pretty important for the Goblin with -2 CHA.
Okay, so getting all the feats in line for this trick/combo within a reasonable level progression is proving difficult. Can anyone beat this?
(1) Monk 1 (Master of Many Styles) - Unarmed Strike, Panther Style, base feat Weapon Finesse
(2) Ninja 1
(3) Ninja 2 Trick: Dodge, base feat Mobility
(4) Ninja 3
(5) Ninja 4 (Scout Rouge Archetype) Scout Charge, Trick: Roll With it, Chosen feat: Underfoot
(6) Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles) - bonus feat: Panther Claw
(7) (doesn't matter) - Chosen feat: Tangle Feet
That's 7 levels to pull the whole thing off, then the thing to do in future levels is probably pick up spring attack and another combat style, since Master of Many Styles allows 2 active.
Any quicker way to do it? There's a lot of feats in there.
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Being able to stand up from prone without provoking is pretty nice for this build, seeing as being prone will be a common thing.
If you multiclass, I highly suggest not a Ninja/Monk mix. Unarmed Fighter works well.
Going Unarmed Fighter at first level, then Master of Many Styles second, will get you Panther Claw at second level.
I highly suggest nabbing the Monkey Style feat sometime after second, to get up quickly, and pump your Acrobatics.
But you need Improved Unarmed Strike for the Panther Claw thing as well. Won't it be something like level 10 before you get the full trick off going Monk/Fighter?
Yes but you don't get the ninja tricks to spend on the extra feats. Right? I would think that would be a slower build to the trick, with less skill points to spend, and no sneak attack dice.
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Fighter gets Fighter bonus feats, and can take Fighter exclusive feats, along with being able to take certain feats earlier due to higher BAB. Sneak Attack is famously unreliable, and is nothing compared to the guaranteed bonus damage of Weapon Training.
Monk will give you 4 skill points per level, and you can always put your favored class bonus into an extra skill point.
If you go Human, with Racial Heritage(Goblin), you will get extra skill points every level.
You will get the trick off sooner as well.
Need goblin for the +4 dex.
So would you do a 50/50 Monk/Fighter then? If you're going to go Monk/fighter, why go with "unarmed fighter," when you get most of that from Many Style Monk anyway? Wouldn't there be a better fighter template to adopt?
I have a build with Tangle feat.
Seems there arent recent ones, thought putting mine here might spark something.
Speaking of recent...
Goblin
Unchained Rogue (Swashbuckler Archetype) levels 1-4
Swashbuckler (Mouser Archetype) levels 5-7
1st Roll with it
2nd Dodge* Combat Trick
3rd Mobility
4th Underfoot* Combat Trick
5th Tangle Feet
7th Big Game Hunter... Improved Initiative? (need help going fwrd)
This build works by positioning himself in the battlefield by any means.
Passing a larger foe and using tangle, on the way to the one he wants... then dodging the attack and getting inside the reach to sneak attack next to someone.
Let me know what you think and future development please.