How do you justify Always Evil races?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Kolokotroni wrote:
Albatoonoe wrote:

Well, if you see a full-blooded orc living the farmer's life with his lovely wife, you'd have no justification to kill him, even if he is an Orc. There is no race where you really justify killing every member on sight.

True but in a setting where this is possible, orcs are not irredemably evil, there for the concept doesnt apply. In a setting where orcs are irredemably evil then this situation simply would not happen.

Even in a setting where they're irredeemably evil, some of them will have to farm if they don't have enough others to steal food from, or enough slaves to do it for them.

Farming <> not Evil.
Nor in fact, is having a lovely (by orc standards) wife.


Mikaze wrote:

I don't.

I have no room for genocide or child-killing justifications in my escapist fantasy. I've detested those tropes ever since I first got into the game.

When I want to play a good guy, I want to play GOOD. I don't want to be sickened by what gets passed off as A-OK when matters of good and evil are boiled down to racial hats.

Used as justification for genocide or child-killing I've got no use for it. It's generally the GM's job to not throw that kind of nonsense at the PCs.

OTOH, some kinds of "child"-killing are acceptable in my games, even without "always evil" races. Juvenile dragons are children right? They're also formidable foes, crafty, cunning and powerful.

There are also some races that are non-human and creepy enough to be kill-on-sight. Mindflayers consuming sentient brains to live or at least to rear their offspring.


I figure good deities want you to choose to be good, so you aren't hardwired. Evil deities think that's a load of b.s., and hardwire their flunky races as much as possible. Pathfinder somewhat suffers from "passive goodness" (which it inherited from D&D), where good deities and religious organizations don't really attempt to help the flunky races "see the light" (or at least don't show up in many adventures) so as not to offend the overly delicate sensibilities of players and the morally easy killing their murderhoboes live for. Pathfinder does have Sarenrae, whose basic gig is to help the flunky races "see the light", and I am hoping that when my hardcover of Inner Sea Gods shows up, I will see some more reformist career paths.


Mechagamera wrote:
I figure good deities want you to choose to be good, so you aren't hardwired.

That's sort of weird logic. Obviously if you wanted them to do just what you said you'd manipulate them. Its if you didn't care that you would let them do whatever. Several factions have hardwired creatures though, namely outsiders and constructs, some of which are made by the deities themselves for a particular purpose if I remember correctly.

See the light logic is sort of awkward... and subjective. Saranrae's church also cast Geas to ensure people are god citizens if I remember right. Not sure its she's totally for free will either.

Scarab Sages

thejeff wrote:
Used as justification for genocide or child-killing I've got no use for it. It's generally the GM's job to not throw that kind of nonsense at the PCs.

This x1000. Unless the players are really determined to play awful people, you go out of your way not to force them into situations where they have to choose between being a**-hats and making stupid decisions.

Intractable moral quandaries are okay when it's important to the story or you want to feature it as a discrete challenge. However, making every combat encounter a morality trap has the potential to severely bog down the game.


KarlBob wrote:

There are fantasy novels with shades of grey, too. They may not be as old as mythology, but they've been around quite a while. Many of them approach grey from the dark side, where everyone has a price, and outer holiness hides inner corruption. There's also a history, though, of ne'er-do-well characters with unexpected hearts of gold.

Come to think of it, many mythologies feature gods and powerful mortals who aren't paragons of virtue or unmitigated villains. (The Greeks come immediately to mind.)

Tolkien may represent one side of the source material of D&D, but it's not the only side.

Ovid's Metamorphoses loved using the archetypal Good Guys as the jerks. The portrayal of Athena in particular is really condemning (he could get away with it because he was Roman, not Athenian).

I personally get very... uneasy with black and white morality, partially because I'm a fairly popular target for it, at least here in the US. I don't think escapism is a good reason, and is actually rather dangerous; there are too many people in this world who don't understand that reality isn't so simple as Us vs. Them, and playing Cowboys and Indians only further implants that philosophy in the public mindset.

The Exchange

True enough: however, we're discussing whether it has a place in Cowboys and Indians (or rather the slightly-less-simplistic, considerably-rules-heavier fantasy RPG version of it.)


Indagare wrote:
So, how do you justify a race being completely and utterly evil all the time everywhere it goes regardless of anything else? If you don't how do you handle the diversity?

When I want such a race, the explanation is simple: they're all natural-born psychopaths, and they have no Code of Harry to make them morally ambiguous!

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