Goblin Squad Member
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This article has frustration written all over it. Still it brings up a point that I mentioned before. Exploits will happen. How they are dealt with will say a lot about GW.
So Goblinworks, I really hope you have some plans in place for when these things go down. Plans for small scale and large scale. For exploits discovered right away and for those that players have been doing for extended periods of time. That you have easier ways of tracking the information so you can find it when needed. Give players the ability to police each other with exploit reports that are useful to the devs that have to deal with it.
Really, I'm just asking the fine folks at GW to have contingency plans vs exploits and go over them together as a company every now and again like fire drills back in school. So when they happen, the response will be fast and professional.
To the players, don't be lemmings. If you want a top-notch enjoyable game that retains it's players you need to report those exploits, even if you think it won't harm anyone or it 'might' be okay. Resist the urge to do it or let is slide just because everyone else is.
If we start off with a community that doesn't tolerate exploiting than it will be easier to deal with it and the people who abuse it as it occurs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The devs have some advantages:
1. Business: Initial high barrier to entry makes exploit-for profit RMT3 (industrial scale) with a small game population less attractive I think adds up.
2. Game design: if the pve and pvp is dangerous and requires groups again this is good design as is not having loot pinata mobs and other designs that themeparks suffer acutely from.
3. Long delta period: Again allows time for exploits to be found while the economy is small and therefore the devs can do more serious major surgery still to correct these things!
4. Tech: A really big subject and a really understated description (lol).
5. Gaming testing: players might get rewards for reporting bugs to encourage their disclosure etc.
I like the idea of a posse who every pays to go around hunting bots etc. Maybe they wear white cloaks (like the King's Guard in Game of Thrones) or something (player-created in-game solution).
I am coming to terms with life, in that the perfect game world will never exist. It is bothersome because I feel the solution to exploit problems is, as I said before, having actual server-side GM/DM that are overseeing what happens.
What is an exploit? Is it just duping or is it maybe beating a hard boss through a cheesy tactic? A smart way to farm, etc. Because it seems like in every game I've ever played people will sheepishly say "This is pretty bad, but..." or just kind of chuckle while they show it to someone else.
Programming can be exploited and people, to some extent can, too, but I believe having active moderation is what will make a game succeed on that level. You can't count on people to police each other so much because, especially in regards to pvp, people are gonna be mad... and people are gonna hide secrets if they work.
One can say that only fatal flaws are exploits, but I believe even minor exploits lead games down that "meta" path. And personally, that's not where I wanna be.
I'll go back to my hole now. More pessimism coming soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel the solution to exploit problems is, as I said before, having actual server-side GM/DM that are overseeing what happens.
Sure. That'd work. It just isn't economically feasible.
Say a given 'GM' could somehow monitor everything that 100 players are doing 24 hours per day 7 days per week just within the hours of a typical 9 to 5, 5 day work week. Those 100 players are paying $15 per month, so $1500 total, divided by around 20 work days per month and 8 hours per day yields $9.37 per hour. Federal minimum wage in the U.S. (where goblinworks is located) is $7.25 per hour. That'd mean that 77% of the gross profits of the game would go to paying people to monitor it. Leaving only 23% to pay for equipment costs, ongoing development, project management, et cetera.
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Goblin Squad Member
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5. Gaming testing: players might get rewards for reporting bugs to encourage their disclosure etc.
This.
Reward players for bug discovery. It works incredibly well for Google, and it would cost comparatively little money, particularly when taking into account dev time spent undoing damage.
Give players game time for being the one to discover a bug. 1, 2 or 3 months depending on severity.
If even one dev would have spent just one hour undoing damage caused by a bug...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Federal minimum wage in the U.S. (where goblinworks is located) is $7.25 per hour.
State minimum wage here is over $9, Seattle just bumped theirs up to $15.
Players self-policing behavior and something like a bug bounty would cover so many of the issues that are likely to come up. It will take time to determine how adamant the community at large is about coming down on cheaters and griefers, but it is conceivable that such a player could be blacklisted from enough settlements that it could limit their playability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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5. Gaming testing: players might get rewards for reporting bugs to encourage their disclosure etc.This.
Reward players for bug discovery.
I agree. Though there would likely need to be some reward less than one month of game time (i.e. $15) for very minor bugs. Maybe just give people varying amounts of store credit based on bug severity and let them decide when and how to spend it.
Just set the payments to players less than the cost of paying employees to clean up the mess and it will always be a net win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Federal minimum wage in the U.S. (where goblinworks is located) is $7.25 per hour.State minimum wage here is over $9, Seattle just bumped theirs up to $15.
Players self-policing behavior and something like a bug bounty would cover so many of the issues that are likely to come up. It will take time to determine how adamant the community at large is about coming down on cheaters and griefers, but it is conceivable that such a player could be blacklisted from enough settlements that it could limit their playability.
Who gets to take the bug bounty (exclusive!) dragon for a spin today, troops?! :O
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Goblin Squad Member
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People do things they wouldn't normally do for incentives. That's why unlocking Xbox or Steam Achievements are so popular. Or why credit card companies offer airline miles with purchases. Giving players an incentive to report exploits besides "the good of their heart" is a great idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow. Finally read the OP. Then I read the comments.
And people wonder why I say that many MMO communities are toxic....
That article and the comments are kind of illuminating in regards to toxic communities.
Blaming QA? Really? Exploits aren't always bugs. If you don't have collision and you have 50 people stack on top of one another it makes it almost impossible for enemies to focus fire on someone in the stack. Not a bug, but it is still considered an exploit and I have seen it in multiple MMOs. Players care more about their short sighted goals than the spirit of the game and how their actions will cause other players to quit. I distinctly remember losing a moderate sized PvP battle in a game because I wouldn't allow my guild to stack and how members of my guild quit the game afterward.I think GW has started off on the right foot by cultivating a good community so far. Judging from the thread about real life ages of people it seems like most of the people so far are 30+, which is highly encouraging.
That being said, exploits are bound to happen. Thousands of players are bound to find something that isn't in the spirit of the game. Do you plan on having a zero tolerance in regards to this sort of thing?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Federal minimum wage in the U.S. (where goblinworks is located) is $7.25 per hour.State minimum wage here is over $9, Seattle just bumped theirs up to $15.
Players self-policing behavior and something like a bug bounty would cover so many of the issues that are likely to come up. It will take time to determine how adamant the community at large is about coming down on cheaters and griefers, but it is conceivable that such a player could be blacklisted from enough settlements that it could limit their playability.
Seattle is going to phase the minimum wage up to $15/hour over the next seven years. It isn't there quite yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's certainly something. Wonder how the minimum wage vs. cost of living compares...
Wait, why is this discussion here? XD
Coming from personal experience. It doesn't compare at all if you have to devote your time to anything other than work. [And Seattle just voted to raise their minimum wage to $15. Personal opinion: Here's hoping the trend continues]
ON topic: I'd agree that a reward for bug hunting and honest play is the proper way to go at this. For every WoW/GW2/FF14 raiding guild that found a bug and reported it properly without exploiting it first, there's a dozen that exploit it and never report it.
When there are stakes, people are much less inclined to play fair. Given the nature of the game that GW is trying to achieve, the stakes are constantly going to be high. Settlements can go from months of work to complete desolation in a matter of days or hours. Anything that can make players feel secure will be used as often as possible. Look at DayZ, self-preservation and greed are the two primary factors of both cheating and unsportsmanlike conduct (moreso liberal use of mechanics rather than player interaction).
If the reward for not exploiting is greater than the benefit of using it and getting off scot-free, then people will not exploit.