Move and standard actions for monsters

[Craig1234]

My group is moving out of the beginner box into the core rules and I noticed something I'm not sure about. While I'm sure this is the case with many monsters, my example is just using ghouls to illustrate.

In the beginner box, ghouls have bite+3 listed as a standard action. It also shows bite+3 and 2 claws+3 as a "move and standard action." Whereas, in the bestiary, it shows both attacks as going together, the damage is identical between beginner and core (except that beginner doesn't have disease, which I don't think exists in the beginner rules). So when I play using the bestiary version, do I treat any attack as a standard action with the monsters having no move & standard or full round equivalent?

In this case for instance, could I move the ghoul 20' and then still do a bite and 2 claws? Also, I presume that if a sequence of attacks is OR'd, then I choose which ever I prefer as a standard action?

Thanks

[ErrantPursuit]

You should read over combat actions a little more. The beginner box simplifies some rules concepts. The ghoul can make a single attack with any natural attack as a Standard Action, and can use all of its natural attacks as a Full Attack Action. You can take a Move Action and a Standard Action in the same turn, but you cannot take a Move Action if you take a Full Attack Action.

[Craig1234]

thanks, I was planning on going through the whole chapter on combat again, now at least I know which part explains this.

Thanks again

[Ascalaphus]

Basically, "Full" = Standard + Move.

Making all attacks requires a Full attack; making only one attack requires only a Standard action.

[Majuba]

Craig1234 wrote:

Also, I presume that if a sequence of attacks is OR'd, then I choose which ever I prefer as a standard action?

OR represents attack options that are mutually exclusive. They can be a single attack (standard action), or multiple attacks (full-attack/full-round/(standard + move) action - lots of names!).

For instance, a ghoul that had a scimitar on him could say:
2 Claws +3 (1d4+3) and Bite +3 (1d6+3) OR
scimitar +3 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2) and Claw -2 (1d4+1) and Bite -2 (1d6+1).

[Craig1234]

Ok, so if I've got this straight, using ghoul example above - as a full round action I could do either 2 Claws +3 (1d4+3) and Bite +3 (1d6+3) OR
scimitar +3 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2) and Claw -2 (1d4+1) and Bite -2 (1d6+1), but if I wanted to move the ghoul during his turn then I would choose any one of the five options listed: 2 Claws+3, Bite+3, scimitar+3, claw-2, or bite-2.

Also, if they are mutually exclusive, I'm I restricted after the first attack? For instance, in round 1 I beat up my PCs with 2 claws, can I use the scimitar in round 2?

[Are]

Almost. You can only get 1 claw attack if the ghoul moves, not two.

Also, note that the "claw -2" and "bite -2" are the same attacks as the "claw +3" and "bite +3"; since natural attacks are always considered secondary when combined with manufactured weapon attacks, they get a -5 penalty when used alongside the scimitar.

If you use claws in the first round, you can still use the scimitar in round 2, but you'd likely have to draw it.

[Craig1234]

Ok, still not getting it. I reviewed the combat section of the core rules, and feel pretty good about it in terms of what and how the PCs can do, but still confused with the beasties.

Once again using the ghoul above for a reference:
Ghoul with a scimitar:
2 Claws +3 (1d4+3) and Bite +3 (1d6+3) OR
scimitar +3 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2) and Claw -2 (1d4+1) and Bite -2 (1d6+1).

I think for the full round action I've got it - in this case I can do (2 claws and bite) OR (scimitar, claw, and bite). It's the standard action version where I'm still getting myself confused. Since I can take 2 claws and Bite as a full round, shouldn't I be able to take either one as a standard action? Extending that for a moment beyond Ghouls, as a standard action, shouldn't I be able to pick any 1 melee or ranged attack listed in the stat block?

Thanks again for the help, maybe I'm just dense, but I'm still not clear.

[Blakmane]

The '2 claws' is shorthand to save space, but is not implying you can use both attacks at once. Maybe it'll help to think of it like this:

The ghoul has three natural attacks (claw, claw, bite)

as a full round action it could go claw +3, claw +3 and bite +3 OR
scimitar +3, claw -2, Bite -2

Thus, as a standard action it can use any ONE attack as you mentioned, which would be Claw +3, Bite +3 or scimitar +3.

As a general rule, when you take a standard action to attack you only ever get one attack. It doesn't matter if you have 50 tentacles, you still get only one attack. In order to get more than one you'll need some special ability like pounce.

[Craig1234]

OK, I think that clears it up. I wasn't thinking of it as shorthand but rather 2 claws is one attack. Basically, if I do understand, I must first break down each item in the attack list to its components and then choose one, so if there is an attack listed that is actually a multiple of something, the standard action is still only the single.

[Magda Luckbender]

Right. A standard action allows any one attack.

Once your players figure out how Full Attacks work they will better understand how to use movement to their advantage. Tactical movement and initiative determine who opens with a Full Attack versus who opens with a Standard Action. Readied actions are another way to improve your odds. For example, it's often possible for PCs to prevent some particularly deadly foes (ghouls, trolls, yeti abominations, etc) from getting a full attack, while still getting in most of their own attacks. This requires cooperation and anticipation. Encourage this sort of teamwork, and sometimes have your combat-savvy NPCs do the same thing to to PCs.

[Blakmane]

yes, that's exactly right :)