Some questions that I couldn't find answered on all the other forum posts made on grappling -.-
So the dominant grappler get's a +5 bonus to maintain the grapple in subsequent rounds right? I assume this doesn't increase by another 5 each round does it?
Also this bonus only applies to the CMB check to maintain the grapple at the start of your round? It doesn't help your CMD against your opponent when they try and escape in their round? If not why not?
You over came their CMD to initiate the grapple (plus their AoO) and then in their turn they just have to overcome yours to escape, rendering the whole process pointless?
Also when grappling you get a -4 to Dex, does this apply against your grappling opponent as well? ie your CMD is reduced by 2 when you are grappling? So it's actually easier for your opponent to escape your grapple?
I feel like I must be missing something?
There also aren't any rules for surprising someone from behind with a grapple is there? I know they are denied their dex to their intial CMD because they are flat-footed, but in the subsequent grapple checks you gain no bonuses from catching them from behind?
If not, my thoughts would be to allow a character to add their number of sneak attack dice to their CMB and CMD against an opponent they grapple when they could have sneak attacked them instead. Thoughts?
Many thanks in advance :)
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It's not a cumulative +5, no.
It's only to maintain the grapple.
"Why" is a philosophical question, not a rules question.
The penalties on attacks and AC are equal for both involved in the grapple, so they cancel each other out.
There is no facing in Pathfinder, so "surprising from behind" isn't possible.
You can only apply sneak attack damage to someone who is pinned, since they are denied their dexterity bonus. Just being in a grapple won't do it.
"A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple."
The penalties to attacks don't apply when using them against your fellow grappler, but the penalty to dex does?
I guess you're right it is a philosophical question.
And I didn't mean sneak attack damage, I meant your number of sneak attack die, ie level 3 rogue does 2d6 in sneak damage, he has 2 sneak attack die, so has a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD against an opponent he grappled instead of using a sneak attack.
Also if there is no facing in pathfinder does that mean RAW it's not possible to sneak up silently behind someone in daylight? Or is it just something we hand wave as DMs?
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
The penalty to dexterity is across the board. Anyone in a grapple has a -4 dexterity penalty.
However, the -2 penalty to attack does not apply to grapple checks or escaping a grapple check.
Because the -4 dexterity applies and the -2 attack does not apply yes, there is effectively a hidden +2 bonus (in the form of -2 to CMD) to maintain a grapple.
Regarding the +5 being cumulative, no, it is not. Anytime you are attempting to maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus.
Summary:
To maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus on top of your normal grapple bonus and the opponent probably has a -2 penalty to CMD (due to the -4 Dex penalty).
Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler’s CMB + spell level, see page 206), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.The penalty to dexterity is across the board. Anyone in a grapple has a -4 dexterity penalty.
However, the -2 penalty to attack does not apply to grapple checks or escaping a grapple check.
Because the -4 dexterity applies and the -2 attack does not apply yes, there is effectively a hidden +2 bonus (in the form of -2 to CMD) to maintain a grapple.
Regarding the +5 being cumulative, no, it is not. Anytime you are attempting to maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus.
Summary:
To maintain a grapple you have a +5 bonus on top of your normal grapple bonus and the opponent probably has a -2 penalty to CMD (due to the -4 Dex penalty).
OK, but then when it comes to your opponents round they make a normal CMB check against your penaltied CMD (which has a -2 penalty) to escape?
Yes.
Note: I do not believe this is the intent. I believe the intent is that neither side has an combat maneuver or dexterity penalty related to grapple checks. However, that is not what is written.
Yes.
Note: I do not believe this is the intent. I believe the intent is that neither side has an combat maneuver or dexterity penalty related to grapple checks. However, that is not what is written.
Right cool, nice to a hear a confirmation on thoughts. Then I guess I will house rule it. Cheers :)