Can a bow attack hit a grappled ally?

[Gellor]

Hello!

Back in 3.5 you could hit an ally with a ranged attack if they were grappled. In Pathfinder that doesn't appear to be stated anywhere. We are at a pretty critical point in RotRL, and my blinded paladin shot into a grapple. Using the old 3.5 rules, we assumed he hit his ally due to some rolls.

The GM feels that simply because it isn't stated in Pathfinder, doesn't mean it no longer exists. I feel that if the chance existed, the rules would have called out the risk, and now it is simply a -4 for shooting into combat.

Could someone weigh in if this has been officially addressed by Paizo? Does it even need to be?

Thanks!

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Gellor wrote:

The GM feels that simply because it isn't stated in Pathfinder, doesn't mean it no longer exists.

WOW! You cannot hit your allies while grappled using RAW in PF. But, its your GM's game so if he wants to house rule 3.5 stuff into it (lots of GM's do, lots don't) its kind of up to him. If something isn't stated, it should be assumed not to exist, not the other way around.

[Lifat]

Nope. If it isn't stated in the pathfinder rules it doesn't automatically transfer. It would be fair to implement it, but the GM needs to understand that it is a houserule and not rules as written or intended in pathfinder.

[blahpers]

Pathfinder is not 3.5. It does not inherit any rules from 3.5 unless those rules are explicitly published in Pathfinder rule books. Hitting an ally when shooting into melee (or grapple) is one of the things that was deliberately changed in Pathfinder.

The GM is free to use 3.5 rules for this at a particular table, but it double-penalizes the ranged attacker.

Paizo needs to address this about as much as Paizo needs to address how its grapple rules differ from those of GURPS. Different game, different rules.

[wraithstrike]

Pathfinder rewrote a lot of rules. This is one of them that no longer applies. I was playing the game for months and picking up little changes here and there as I went along.

Pathfinder is not D&D 3.75. It is it's own game that uses many of 3.5's rules. Unless the wording is the same it is fair to say the rule has changed.

[Lifat]

blahpers wrote:

Pathfinder is not 3.5. It does not inherit any rules from 3.5 unless those rules are explicitly published in Pathfinder rule books. Hitting an ally when shooting into melee (or grapple) is one of the things that was deliberately changed in Pathfinder.

The GM is free to use 3.5 rules for this at a particular table, but it double-penalizes the ranged attacker.

Paizo needs to address this about as much as Paizo needs to address how its grapple rules differ from those of GURPS. Different game, different rules.

I don't completely agree. 3.5 is the game system that pathfinder was built upon. If rules text is the same for both systems then I will also asume that the 3.5 FAQ is valid for pathfinder. If rules text is changed or omitted then we can no longer asume that it works like in 3.5.

In this situation a rule was omitted and it CLEARLY changed how you'd handle the situation. The GM is naturally allowed to make house rules and changing this particular thing into how it works in 3.5 is not as big a change as it would be to change it to how it works in GURPS.
I would personally say that the rules on the subject has been improved in pathfinder but that is just my two cents.

[Secane]

@Gellor,

No, shooting at a grappled target won't risk a chance of it hitting your ally

Some thing to note on how Pathfinder Grappling works:
1) Both grappler and grappled don't share the same square.

1a) When the grappler grapples a target, he must move the target to a open space next to him. If he can't do so the grapple fails.

2) Both grappler and grappled suffer the grappled condition.

3) They both can't perform aoos.

4) There is no 50% possibility to hit your ally who is grappling/grappled rule in PF. (Remember! They are in separated squares.)

4a)They might provide cover from the range attack.

Do note that the above are not iron clad, there are many class and archetype abilities and feats that can modify this rules. But the no 50% chance is pretty solid.

@Lifat,
It is not a good assumption to assume 3.5 rules always works as they are in PF. They should be look at as different systems.

Otherwise, it won't be fair or logical to people who started off with Pathfinder and never played 3.5 before. Would they be expected to look up 3.5 FAQs?