| MYTHIC TOZ |
1. Quite often, unless the player has leapt through an enormous amount of optimization hoops.
2. I don't, but how I think of them and how they are often do not mesh. (Although I have been thinking of my rogue more that way as time goes on.)
3. Almost never, unless the player takes charge of things despite his character.
Lincoln Hills
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I once ran a rogue who was the party leader. Of course, since I was the only good-aligned character at a table of "poor impulse control" neutrals, I felt more like a kindergarten teacher. (Somebody had to pay attention to the plot.)
I've never thought of any character that another player is running as a sidekick. Have you internalized the boards' fascination with "power level" to the point where you feel we should start demeaning people who play certain classes? Because otherwise I don't think I grasp the basis of the question.
| gnomersy |
1) Sometimes, it depends on how the player portrays his character more often than not I do not consider them sidekicks.
2) When I can't do anything useful(Monks vs Ranged flying enemies) I occasionally feel like a sidekick but I also did all the cheese I could and my DM threw me a few bones which RAW he could have not given me.
3) Depends more on who the player is than the class honestly because our play group has a few people who don't want to/can't lead.
| blahpers |
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When someone else plays a rogue or monk, do you think of them as sidekicks?
When you play them, do you think of your character as one?
How often do find them as the acknowledge leaders of the party? Unacknowledged?
No.
No.
In my experience, PC parties don't tend to have singular leaders, officially or otherwise. The exceptions are too few to formulate a pattern.
Note: These questions seem loaded and subtly inflammatory to me, but perhaps that wasn't your intent; I'm still a bit irritated by last month's block of "omg rouges sux" threads that may or may not still be going on right now (hooray, Ignore). I'll keep an open mind.
Lincoln Hills
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...It's currently on the boards about AC being useless. Some one compared them to mooks.
I must admit the "rogues are useless" camp is vehement. And I concede they have a point, but not in the way they mean. In not-so-olden times (3.0) the rogue was the skill class, and in the last two revisions a lot of other classes (esp. the bard and ranger) have become competitive skill-wise while offering more non-skill abilities. And PF's traits and archetypes - even its more generous cross-class skill rules - have all slowly granted other classes access to skills that were once rogue-only. So the problem isn't that rogues "have nothing" - it's that easily half of what made them distinctive has become common as dirt.
They get some good defensive abilities, but those aren't as sexy as kill-powah! so they aren't really enough to endear the class to anybody who's not a fan of the very notion of a scoundrel.Those with an interest might take a look at the Thief class from Iron Heroes or the Unfettered class from Arcana Evolved (both 3.x variant systems), to see a different approach to making the classic scoundrel a powerful contributor.
As far as the Monk - well, I'm not in a position to defend the Monk because I hardly even notice the class. They, too, have the problem of defensive abilities being insufficiently "cool," although I admit some of the monk-oriented feats in PF offer some interesting possibilities (though most of them can be taken by unarmed fighter and barbarian archetypes just as easily...)
| gnomersy |
As far as the Monk - well, I'm not in a position to defend the Monk because I hardly even notice the class. They, too, have the problem of defensive abilities being insufficiently "cool," although I admit some of the monk-oriented feats in PF offer some interesting possibilities (though most of them can be taken by unarmed fighter and barbarian archetypes just as easily...)
I don't think I agree with this I think the issue is that the defensive abilities a monk gets can only make himself safer which makes it difficult to justify his place on a team (It would be different if the monk provided defensive bonuses to his entire party via aura effects but he doesn't) and if he doesn't provide kill power to keep the party safe by virtue of keeping the enemy dead he ends up being just another occupied space. That being said I think effective monks do exist they just trade most of their defensive advantages for offense or are playing in games with more items or higher average starting stats.
As for Rogues I do agree on the loss of their niche in PF although frankly their niche was dumb and just made the entire party feel useless half the time and the Rogue feel useless half the time, again I think their defensive abilities aren't really that useful although in the Rogue's case it's because evasion is only okay, they only have one strong save(and it's the least important one), low hp, and uncanny dodge isn't all that great. And for Rogues their offense is only conditionally useful in that it only becomes okay(not great but okay) when they have sneak attack and the game doesn't provide enough ways for them to set it up easily for themselves.
| Darigaaz the Igniter |
When I played a fighter early on (APG came out a little after the campaign started), I wasn't even the sidekick, I was the comic relief.
The rogue in our current campaign has proved himself very useful out of combat, though I do often spend my turn getting into flank with him and making my one attack. It's kind of alright since even my second iterative rarely hits, let alone the third.
| gnomersy |
When I played a fighter early on (APG came out a little after the campaign started), I wasn't even the sidekick, I was the comic relief.
The rogue in our current campaign has proved himself very useful out of combat, though I do often spend my turn getting into flank with him and making my one attack. It's kind of alright since even my second iterative rarely hits, let alone the third.
Your secondary should be hitting at worst 10% less often than the Rogue's primary. Since by the time you have a second attack the Rogue is down 2 points of BAB and 1 point of Weapon Training. By the time you have three attacks he's down 3 or 4 points of BAB 2 points of Weapon Training another 2 points from Gloves of Dueling and 1 point for greater weapon focus. And that ignores that you should consistently have at least +1 more in your to hit stat because you aren't as MAD. So you should have around +9 or +10 to hit on the rogue which means your tertiary would hit roughly as often as his primary.
| blahpers |
When I played a fighter early on (APG came out a little after the campaign started), I wasn't even the sidekick, I was the comic relief.
The rogue in our current campaign has proved himself very useful out of combat, though I do often spend my turn getting into flank with him and making my one attack. It's kind of alright since even my second iterative rarely hits, let alone the third.
If you're bent on helping the rogue sneak attack at the cost of a move, that might be worth taking Vital Strike since it supports your model. Depends on what weapon you're using, though.
Alternately, encourage the rogue to take Gang Up and get another frontliner in there--even a cheap summon.
Ascalaphus
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I'm playing a halfling ranger in a 3.5 game, and my Strength is meh. I feel a lot like the druid's sidekick, yeah.
1) No... because being a sidekick requires you to be aware of what's happening to you. All the monks and rogues I've seen so far had no clue how hard they were getting screwed. They just floundered about. They tended to be inexperienced players who eventually switched to a different class/new character.
2) I don't play them. Although playing a competent sidekick can be fun, in the right group.
3) Leadership (in my experience) tends to be determined by player confidence/alertness/assertiveness/personality, not by a character's brute power. Characters with good detection/investigation skills and the player skill to use them well, do tend to have more influence.
| Scavion |
When someone else plays a rogue or monk, do you think of them as sidekicks?
When you play them, do you think of your character as one?
How often do find them as the acknowledge leaders of the party? Unacknowledged?
Sometimes
The Adventures of Arden Galazar(3.5 Warmage) was the nickname for one of our campaigns. I played a Rogue.
Never unless I'm running a 1 on 1 game.
| Darigaaz the Igniter |
Your secondary should be hitting at worst 10% less often than the Rogue's primary. Since by the time you have a second attack the Rogue is down 2 points of BAB and 1 point of Weapon Training. By the time you have three attacks he's down 3 or 4 points of BAB 2 points of Weapon Training another 2 points from Gloves of Dueling and 1 point for greater weapon focus. And that ignores that you should consistently have at least +1 more in your to hit stat because you aren't as MAD. So you should have around +9 or +10 to hit on the rogue which means your tertiary would hit roughly as often as his primary.
Different campaign, this time around I'm an inquisitor. I don't know what the rogue's exact numbers are, but I'm currently sporting +22/+14/+9 at level 15 with power attack, furious focus, greater magic weapon, and heroism; +4 with judgement, +2 with greater bane, +3/+5 if I have time to cast Divine Favor/Power on myself beforehand (which we usually don't).
f you're bent on helping the rogue sneak attack at the cost of a move, that might be worth taking Vital Strike since it supports your model. Depends on what weapon you're using, though.
I thought about it, but +1d6 for my heavy pick is not all that great for me.
| gnomersy |
Different campaign, this time around I'm an inquisitor. I don't know what the rogue's exact numbers are, but I'm currently sporting +22/+14/+9 at level 15 with power attack, furious focus, greater magic weapon, and heroism; +4 with judgement, +2 with greater bane, +3/+5 if I have time to cast Divine Favor/Power on myself beforehand (which we usually don't).
Ah okay that makes much more sense, that being said consider a quicken rod by level 11 or so they're affordable and perfect for squeezing in a Divine Favor.
| Darigaaz the Igniter |
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:Different campaign, this time around I'm an inquisitor. I don't know what the rogue's exact numbers are, but I'm currently sporting +22/+14/+9 at level 15 with power attack, furious focus, greater magic weapon, and heroism; +4 with judgement, +2 with greater bane, +3/+5 if I have time to cast Divine Favor/Power on myself beforehand (which we usually don't).Ah okay that makes much more sense, that being said consider a quicken rod by level 11 or so they're affordable and perfect for squeezing in a Divine Favor.
At level 11, a lesser rod of quicken would be ~43% of your wbl, so I guess we have different ideas of 'affordable'. Especially since I like to keep my ac up.
Lincoln Hills
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I dunno. Now that I've articulated the degree to which the rogue's thunder has been stolen, I'm actually coming to the reluctant opinion that the class is in need of a rewrite to give it more in the way of unique, distinctive, combat-helpful benefits. So, you know, sometimes Internet bickering does change somebody's opinion. When it's cogent and polite. ;)