1- when creating a ring of protection, is the caster level to be 5th regardless of bonus? So a level 5 wizard can create +1 RoP's as well as +5 RoP's?
2- if I wanted to create a +5 RoP where as the bonus was luck rather than deflection, would I be correct if I said the cost would be 37,500gp and price would be 75,000gp? Is the caster level requirement and spell craft check the same as if it were a deflection bonus?
3- if I wanted to create a RoP that gave both a +5 to deflection AND a +5 luck to AC, what is the process?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to 1 and 2, but 3 did a pretty good job of frustrating me
Anyone?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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1- when creating a ring of protection, is the caster level to be 5th regardless of bonus? So a level 5 wizard can create +1 RoP's as well as +5 RoP's?
2- if I wanted to create a +5 RoP where as the bonus was luck rather than deflection, would I be correct if I said the cost would be 37,500gp and price would be 75,000gp? Is the caster level requirement and spell craft check the same as if it were a deflection bonus?
3- if I wanted to create a RoP that gave both a +5 to deflection AND a +5 luck to AC, what is the process?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to 1 and 2, but 3 did a pretty good job of frustrating me
1) CL is set by the crafter as the minimum to fulfill the pre-req spells. Shield of Faith is a 1st level spell, so CL 1 for even +5 ring. Why it is listed as CL 5 is the ones found in treasure are all CL 5 to mechanically set the DC to identify.
2) If you wanted to make it luck, you are required to be the GM and you are required to look at other similar items and items of similar power before you consult the table. You will notice nothing provides luck bonuses higher than +1 (at least I know of no existing items) so you would be very cautious in creating something with a +5 luck bonus even at 75,000 gp.
3) Again the GM and once you determine the cost of +5 Luck (and if you as the GM allow it) then you would add 50% more to the lower cost (+5 luck or +5 deflection) and that is the total.
One more even more ridiculous question. This one will assume the formula above is accurate, and also that 75,000gp is an appropriate price for a +5 AC bonus for any type other than deflection.
What about a +5 deflection, +5 luck, +5 sacred? Do you still only apply the 50% cost increase to the lowest costing ability, or do you apply it twice because there is 3 abilities?
Really the size of the bonuses don't matter, I only originally made them high to see if there would be a problem with CL being to high, but since it doesn't change then it doesn't matter. Lets stick with the +5's for the sake of the discussion though. The purpose is really just to understand the stacking abilities rule. I have no plan on creating this item.
1) The item caster level is for crafting purposes and dispelling purposes. For a Ring of Protection +1 to +5 it will always be 5 whether the crafter is 7th level or 20th level. It is just the way it is. The DC is set as the Caster Level (5) + a base (5) or DC 10 if all of the other requirements are met.
The 3 x deflection bonus caster level is a requirement. A 7th level crafter can overcome that by adding +5 to the craft DC per the crafting rules.
2 & 3)Magic Item creation like this is more of an art than a science. That means the charts do not cover everything and a DM will have to give their input along the way. There are some general guidelines, however. Normally for an Armor Class bonus, other than Deflection, Armor, or Natural, it cost the square of the bonus times 2,500gp. To add a second set of bonuses to an item it is usually 50% of whatever is being added into the base item.
For example, a Ring of Protection +1 (a deflection bonus) costs 2,000gp to purchase (1 x 1 x 2,000gp)or half that (1,000gp) to craft. A Ring of Luck Protection +1 (a Luck bonus) costs 2,500gp to purchase (1 x 1 x 2,500gp) or half that (1,250gp) to craft. If we wanted to craft them together we would start with the Luck Ring and add the Deflection Ring for a purchase price of 5,500gp (2,500gp + (2,000gp x 1.5)) or 2,750 to craft.
A Ring of Protection +5 (a deflection bonus) costs 50,000gp to purchase (5 x 5 x 2,000gp)or half that (25,000gp) to craft. A Ring of Luck Protection +1 (a Luck bonus) costs 62,500gp to purchase (5 x 5 x 2,500gp) or half that (31,250gp) to craft. If we wanted to craft them together we would start with the Luck Ring and add the Deflection Ring for a purchase price of 137,500gp (62,500gp + (50,000gp x 1.5)) or 68,750 to craft.
Now many DM's may think that is not enough for the added bonus so they would have the ability and right to override the costs and give you a different number. However, these would be good guidelines.
Good luck!
@Hendelbolaf
Ah thank you sir. I get it now. Please excuse my numbers above. my brain was misfiring, seeing 2,500gp as 1.5 x cost for some reason lol. I believe I'll delete that before I confuse someone
EDIT: Ah but I cant change it in the thread opener. Hope I don't screw anyone up
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1) The item caster level is for crafting purposes and dispelling purposes. For a Ring of Protection +1 to +5 it will always be 5 whether the crafter is 7th level or 20th level. It is just the way it is. The DC is set as the Caster Level (5) + a base (5) or DC 10 if all of the other requirements are met.
No, you can set a magic item CL at any level between the minimum needed to cast the spell required to make the item and 20. Even if the item Cl would be above your own CL (scrolls, potions and wands are exceptions, with them the higher limit is your current CL).
If the CL make a difference in the item power you would have to pay for it, if it don't make a difference the price don't change (as an example, the CL of a ring of protection don't make a difference for teh tiem power).
Check the relevant FAQs.
No, you can set a magic item CL at any level between the minimum needed to cast the spell required to make the item and 20. Even if the item Cl would be above your own CL (scrolls, potions and wands are exceptions, with them the higher limit is your current CL).
If the CL make a difference in the item power you would have to pay for it, if it don't make a difference the price don't change (as an example, the CL of a ring of protection don't make a difference for teh tiem power).
Check the relevant FAQs.
It would be better to start the post off with something besides "no" as that makes it seems like my post was wrong and it was not.
Sure, there is an FAQ that speaks directly to the Pearl of Power that was set at the ridiculously high caster level of 17 so the developers made some adjustments to that. That FAQ does not necessarily apply to other items but even if it does it does not really change what I said, nor does it make it wrong.
I was just laying out the rules from the Core Rule Book in simple terms. I still stand by them. If you want to craft a Ring of Protection +1 at 20th level, then go for it. I for one as a DM and a player am not going to try and keep up with that. I have also never received an item like that nor have I seen one in any published adventure (however they may be some out there). So, why go down a road that the original poster did not real ask about and is really confusing and a corner case at best?
I do not mean any disrespect to you Diego, I actually value your opinion on the forums. I just think to say "no" to my post may be confusing to the original poster and not giving me credit for knowing what I am talking about here.
4) What about a +5 deflection, +5 luck, +5 sacred? Do you still only apply the 50% cost increase to the lowest costing ability, or do you apply it twice because there is 3 abilities?
4)
a. 50% more for each enhancement after the firstb. the increase is done in whichever way makes the item the most expensive.
the increase is done in whichever way makes the item the most expensive.
I am not sure about this. Many believe just the opposite that it should always be added to make it the least expensive or the most beneficial to the crafter. I would agree if you are making an item from scratch.
If, however, you are adding new abilities to an existing item, the new abilities would have the 50% increase in cost. The example in the CRB shows this by adding a Ring of Invisibility to a Ring of Protection +2.
If you want it cheap just create 100 +1 dodge ioun stones.
If you want it cheap just create 100 +1 dodge ioun stones.
With that many Ioun Stones buzzing around you should get a cover bonus too...:)
I agree with you 100% Hendelbolaf. Now that ive read the item creation rules pertaining to it, and you and Diego have also used your own words, I understand. The item CAN be created at higher level, but there's only a cost, no benefit. At creation use the most expensive property for the base item, then add each additional ability with a 50% increase for each ability. If its an existing item then just add 50% to the cost of each ability. Makes perfect sense. Thanx guys:)
If you want it cheap just create 100 +1 dodge ioun stones.
lol, I believe that's an insight bonus. I think it was a dodge bonus in 3.5 though;p
So is there a cap on each type of bonus, or by the rules could my villain imprison a cleric/5, pay the cost of creation, and force him to spend a year and a half forging a +25 RoP(+5 deflection, +5 dodge, +5 insight, +5 luck, +5 profane)?
Lets see just how creative they are. MA Hahahahahaha!!!
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No, you can set a magic item CL at any level between the minimum needed to cast the spell required to make the item and 20. Even if the item Cl would be above your own CL (scrolls, potions and wands are exceptions, with them the higher limit is your current CL).
If the CL make a difference in the item power you would have to pay for it, if it don't make a difference the price don't change (as an example, the CL of a ring of protection don't make a difference for teh tiem power).
Check the relevant FAQs.
It would be better to start the post off with something besides "no" as that makes it seems like my post was wrong and it was not.
Sure, there is an FAQ that speaks directly to the Pearl of Power that was set at the ridiculously high caster level of 17 so the developers made some adjustments to that. That FAQ does not necessarily apply to other items but even if it does it does not really change what I said, nor does it make it wrong.
I was just laying out the rules from the Core Rule Book in simple terms. I still stand by them. If you want to craft a Ring of Protection +1 at 20th level, then go for it. I for one as a DM and a player am not going to try and keep up with that. I have also never received an item like that nor have I seen one in any published adventure (however they may be some out there). So, why go down a road that the original poster did not real ask about and is really confusing and a corner case at best?
I do not mean any disrespect to you Diego, I actually value your opinion on the forums. I just think to say "no" to my post may be confusing to the original poster and not giving me credit for knowing what I am talking about here.
The No is for the specific part I cited:
1) The item caster level is for crafting purposes and dispelling purposes. For a Ring of Protection +1 to +5 it will always be 5 whether the crafter is 7th level or 20th level. It is just the way it is. The DC is set as the Caster Level (5) + a base (5) or DC 10 if all of the other requirements are met.
You cite the FAQ about the pearl of power, it has this text in it:
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
Now go and check the other magic items. There is a listed caster level in the requirement line? Only for weapon and armor special abilities and that is a minimum requirement.
The Magic items creation rules give some limitation?
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.
So, no.
Other FAQs?
Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.
Again, no limitation here.
Dev statements?
For many items, the CL provides no benefit except resistance to dispel attempts. A bag of holding is an example of this... its powers aren't based on CL. Thus, the wiz17 could make his bag at CL 9th (the default), CL17th (his own CL), or anything in between. I probably wouldn't let him make it at CL 1st, as secret chest requires CL 9th and the item is based on that, but if he really wanted to I supposed I'd let him. None of these choices affect the price, cost, time, or craft DC in any way, because the CL doesn't affect the item's abilities.For other items, the CL does actually play a role in the item's effects--a generic necklace of fireballs has a default CL of 10th because two varieties include fireball-beads that deal 10d6 damage (just like a CL 10th fireball does). If you wanted to make a type VI or VII necklace (which have fireballs of this power), you should *require* the crafter set the CL to 10th. However, if you're just making a type I necklace (max 5d6 fireball), there's no reason you couldn't just set the item's CL to 5th because it doesn't need to be more than that. And if you're a wiz20 and wanted to be a weirdo and make a type I necklace that's CL 20th, you could, but unless you're paying the extra gold for this increase to change the d6s of the item, that CL is basically irrelevant and I wouldn't have it effect the crafting DC.
For the pearl of power, I agree that in an ideal situation, each type of pearl would have its own CL listed (based on the min level to actually cast that sort of spell), and likewise each type of necklace of fireballs would have its own CL. And while the pearl sort of straddles the line between category 1 (CL is irrelevant because a CL 20th 1st-level pearl isn't any better at recalling spells than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl) and category 2 (in that the spell level of the pearl implies a minimum CL), in terms of its cost, price, and time, the CL difference for a pearl of the same spell level is essentially irrelevant and would almost never be a factor in any campaign (only if someone is specifically trying to temporarily nullify the powers of a pearl, which I've *never* seen happen). It shouldn't be harder to craft the "better" high-CL 1st-level pearl because it isn't really any better than the low-CL 1st-level pearl.
So if the question is, "should a CL 17th 1st-level pearl have a higher crafting DC than a CL 1st 1st-level pearl?" then the answer is "no, because the difference between the two is essentially negligible." Both cost 1000gp, both recall a 1st-level spell. Likewise with a bag of holding... the CL doesn't affect its abilities, so a wiz17 could set the CL to 17th if he wanted to, without changing the crafting DC at all.
Asking the same question about something where the CL *does* matter (like a wand of fireball), I would make the crafting check higher, because that CL actually reflects a significant change in the item's power. A wiz5 trying to make a CL 10th wand of fireball doesn't have the prerequisite to cast a 10d6 fireball, so him trying to make a wand of that should be harder than making a 5d6 wand... and this is reflected in the cost of the item (a 10d6 wand costs more than a 5d6 wand). It *should* be harder for that wizard to make the better wand because the wand really is better than the other wand.
TLDR:
1 )If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, don't make it harder for the crafter (by increasing the crafting DC) for that increase in CL, any more than you'd make it harder if they want a blue magical cloak instead of a red magical cloak.
2) If giving the item a better CL doesn't really make the item better, let the crafter create it at their own CL instead of the default.
No, he say that you can choose the CL of the item.
Add that the rules say that we can craft a keen weapon as soon as we can make the DC, and that is way earlier than level 10. (A DC of 15, raised to 20 for lacking the spell can be beat by a 7th level character with intelligence 10 and a maximized spellcraft or Craft: weapons if spellcraft isn't a class skill for him. A 5th level character with masterwork tools and maximized Craft weapons can give that power to a sword) but the sword will still have a CL of 10, as that is the minimum CL for the ability. So making items above your CL is allowed.
So the statement "For a Ring of Protection +1 to +5 it will always be 5 whether the crafter is 7th level or 20th level." is simply wrong.
A ring of protection require the Shield of Faith spell, a 1st level spell, so the minimum CL is 1, the maximum is whatever you want to make it, paying that with the increased difficulty of creating the item.
I am against allowing that, but "I like/dislike this" has little bearing on how the rules work, so, as long as the reply is about how the rules work and not how they should work, the reply is "you can set the item CL at whatever level you want, as long as the magic item CL is at least on par with the CL needed to cast the required spells.