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In episode 157 of the Private Sanctuary podcast, Ryan points out a number of reasons why it makes more sense to have numerical enhancement bonuses to weapons and armor be a result of superior craftsmanship, not magic. This happens to fit very nicely into the vision of my homebrew setting. The purpose of this thread is NOT to discuss the validity of this idea, but its implementation. If you don't agree with doing this, great. I do. That's not the topic at hand here...
My question is this, if +x numerical enhancement bonuses were to come from superior craftsmanship ship instead of magical enchantment, how would you say that should affect the item value and, by extension, the crafting cost? Half the current cost? Leave it the same?
This would mean that a +1 longsword no longer overcomes DR/magic because it's not a magical weapon, just a superbly crafted one. Also, a +3 longsword will not overcome DR/cold iron because it's still not a magical sword...just an exceptionally well-made one. What is the ability of magical weapons to overcomes DR's worth in gold pieces? Also, any other ramifications that I'm overlooking?
There is a great system for this type of thing in the 3.0 Black Company setting book, don't recall off hand which 3pp did wrote it.
The Arcanis 3.5 setting had a similar system of master work and superior masterwork. I loved it because it made the works of certain weapon smiths legendary and sought after.
So you're just wanting them to be superior masterwork weapons? Hmm. I doubt it should cost as much as a fully magic weapon. The pricing though is a little iffy. A +1 magic weapon costs 2000 gold plus the masterwork cost and base cost of the weapon. A masterwork weapon only costs 300 gold plus the base cost of the weapon. 300 is about what percent of 2000? 15 percent or so? Maybe go that route. A superior masterwork weapon could cost 15 percent of a fully magic weapon with a similar enhancement bonus. However, that feels really cheap to me.
However I do have a question. Does the weapons with superior enhancement bonuses in your world get the bonus to damage as well? If they do then you'll want to bump up the pricing. If not then the 15 percent cost might actually be alright.
There is a great system for this type of thing in the 3.0 Black Company setting book, don't recall off hand which 3pp did wrote it.
Someone made a Black Company setting book?!? I must find it.
the real question is not so much about what it should cost and more about how you modify the crafting rules. it should cost what it ever has, no matter if magic weapons now get crafted by legendary smiths instead of legendary mages. but crafting takes time. A LOT of time crafting an item worth 8000 gold (+2 weapon) with a DC of 30, while rolling an average 40 on the craft check takes... 67 Weaks. nice only more then a year working on a single item. want to try your luck on a +5 weapon?
if the players dont want to craft magic weapons themselves, dont bother with rules, just make npcs work as fast as is reasonable, but if your players want to smith their own weapons it gets real iffy.
also, there are a few differences between crafting and enchanting:
Crafting by the base rules only consumes 1/3 the cost in components, normal enchanting costs 1/2
Crafting needs skillranks while enchanting takes precious feats
crafting is, if you dont consider time to be relevant, preferrable to enchanting in every way, so if you make time a nonissue in the end, you will leave the players with an easier time getting better items then before.
also another note: i wouldn't touch the price economy. once you dare touch the economy, there will be no end to it. its too much to balance and change (i tried multiple times before i dicided it wasnt worth the time)
easiest solution: "craft Magic Weapons and Armor" does no longer require a casterlevel, but either ranks in Craft (Weaponsmith), Craft (Armorsmith) or a Casterlevel (Skillranks=casterlevel).
if you have weaponsmith, you can use it to craft weapons +x, if you have armorsmit you can craft armor +x, if you have casterlevels you can make unique enchantments, if you have alle 3 requirements, you can do all 3 things.
crafting +x items follows the same rules as it did before, you need the feat, you pay what the feat tells you to pay. enchanting a +3 weapon with a +2 equivalent still has the price of upgrading from +3 to +5. Better crafted weapons are more difficult to enchant because... magic... enchanted weapons are harder to reforge... this actually makes sense. Only difference: the smith has to make a craftcheck, dc: mastercraft or base DC (whatevers is higher) + 5 times the enchant bonus.
example: a Greatsword +4 would be a DC 40 check (Mastercraft 20 + 4*5), a Composite Longbow [+3] +4 would be 41 (Composite bow 15 + 3*2 = 21 > 20)
Fail by >10: Loose all Material, Destroy piece of equipment (if you wanted to upgrade)
Fail by >5: Loose 1/2 Material
Fail by 1-5: only loose the time working
Leave the cost as it is. Change the feat "craft magic weapon and armor" into "craft masterwork stuff" and apply the same crafting rules. Half the price in materials and 1 day work per 1k gold market price.
Just remember that now +5 equipment keep working into antimagic fields.
There is a great system for this type of thing in the 3.0 Black Company setting book, don't recall off hand which 3pp did wrote it.Someone made a Black Company setting book?!? I must find it.
Green Ronin, IIRC.
To keep it simple, you could say that only special abilities (flaming, holy, ghost touch, etc.) count as magical enhancements and they count as enhancement bonuses for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction rather than the enhancement bonuses themselves.
Honestly, the biggest issue with money is that your players will be getting much more powerful equipment earlier. Despite the fact you're trying to make a low magic campaign, you'd make a high powered campaign if you lower the cost of enhancement bonuses.
One way of adding varying levels of mundanity to weapons is to introduce weapon degradion. I proposed a system in resposne to a blog post awhile back:
This has an interesting interaction with PCs depending on their level. Low level PCs will likely not care about using a poor quality weapon because a natural 9 or lower will usually miss anyway. Additionally, the expense of mundane weaponry has significance with low level characters. Since low quality weapons are cheap and break often, it creates a scenario where a low level characters will throw away weapons frequently because the cost between fixing a broken sword and buying a used one will be insignificant. High level characters, on the other hand, will need high quality weapons. Higher attack bonuses and the ability to make multiple attacks per round makes having a high quality weapon vital. They also have enough funds to make investing in a single weapon viable.
High magic is the default assumption. Even after you change all the crafting rules, no expert is gonna compete with a 9th level Wizard who maxes several craft skills and learns Fabricate. I would either start using 3pp supplements or just play Runequest instead. That game might be old but it feels like more what you want than Pathfinder.
I don't think I'd be comfortable suggesting a really significant (+5) effect could come just from superior craftmanship, no matter how good. I also don't see how it could make much - if any - difference to damage.
However, I do see that there should/could be levels of masterwork, and you could more easily hit your opponent with a weapon that was superbly balanced and easy to handle.
Create Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item: a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield, see Equipment for the price of other masterwork tools) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
So, for a superior masterwork weapon, that gives +2 to hit, I'd rule that the superior masterwork quality needs quadruple the cost (GP 1200 to buy, or 400 for the maker) and give it a Craft DC of 25. It would also take 4 times as long to complete, which for a masterwork weapon is long enough already. Probably 5 weeks for a masterwork weapon, and therefore 20 weeks for a superior masterwork. (see http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mhva?Masterwork-weapon-component-takes-too-lon g for some figures). (This compares to 8000 g.p. to buy a +2 weapon, which is +2 to hit, +2 to damage, AND overcomes DR/magic. The 1200 g.p. superior masterwork would only be +2 to hit).
If working on these lines, I'd make +3 (to hit) the limit for epic masterwork weapons, so costing say 2700 gp to buy, or 900 gp in materials for the maker, and probably taking even an high level expert swordsmith a year to make. I guess that's a bargain compared to 18 000 gp for a +3 magical sword, although of course that also gives +3 damage and overcomes damage resistance.
(I'd also give masterwork weapons their modifier as a bonus against any sunder attempts).
That's a pretty good suggestion, sgriobhadair. Each masterwork level adds a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls. Though, I'd make the cost formula would be 300 * (enhancement bonus)^2 to mimic the magic item formula.
I guess it depends on the justification for using the superior masterwork weapons over magical ones.
If it's as part of a low-magic world, but to still allow players to have genuine upgrades to their weapons without many magic weapons around, then I think it's a good approach.
(I personally like magic items to be rare enough that when you find one, they're really special. But players like the ++s, and superior masterwork is a way to do both, at least to an extent).
Anyway, the costing I used, which Cyrad gave the formula for, seems balanced and consistent:
purchase cost = (Item cost for the masterwork portion: 300 * (enhancement bonus)^2.
(and as CRB, materials cost for masterwork = 1/3 purchase cost).
With armour, I guess the masterwork +2, +3 would just further reduce the armor check penalty, without adding to the AC.
A couple of questions:
1: Are you completely removing the craft magic arms & armor feat? If you are how are the special weapon properties added to weapons and armor?
2: Are you completely removing the craft magic arms & armor feat? If you are how do spells like magic weapon, greater magic weapon, and Magical Vestment work when added to your master work items?
3: If you are not removing the craft arms & armor feat do the mundane plus' from your master smith ability stack with the plus' from magical arms and armor? (If they stack I would think it would be extremely unbalancing.)
If you are just looking for a way for non magic using smiths to craft magic weapons and armor than the Master Craftsmen feat already exist.
In regards to crafting time and costs I would simple apply the current rules for crafting magic items. First require the smith to craft a mundane masterwork arm or armor using the crafting rules. Then use the regular rules for crafting magic arms and armor. You can use the Master Craftsmen feat to determine the rules for for the magical crafting DC and level requirements (ranks equals level). Using this approach you will not have to adjust the wealth build by level that is built into the Pathfinder.
3: If you are not removing the craft arms & armor feat do the mundane plus' from your master smith ability stack with the plus' from magical arms and armor? (If they stack I would think it would be extremely unbalancing.)
The precedent would be that they don't stack.
A +1 sword has to also be a masterwork weapon. A masterwork weapon already has +1 to hit; the +1 sword STILL has +1 to hit (not +2, from the magic AND the masterwork), but also has +1 damage.
Magic items still exist, but they're only magic if they are ACTUALLY MAGIC. Numerical enhancement bonuses are completely metagame and break my suspension of disbelief less if they're a result of superb craftsmanship. i.e. The sword is deadlier because it's of exceptional craftsmanship, finer steel, and better balance, not because magic guides your swing or anything. If you want a sword that overcomes DR/magic...it should be MAGIC, like flaming or bane.
Clearly, this is all personal opinion though.
Spells like magic weapon still work and I'd even say they stack. One's a craftsmanship bonus and one's a magic bonus. Again though, this is all still very much in the planning stages. With how little I actually get to play these days, it's almost more of a thought exercise than an actual house rule that will see any play.
When magical weapons become less available monsters with the Incorporeal special ability would be a greater challenge. Not an impossible challenge, since there are ways to fight them without magical weapons, such as spells or the spell Magic Weapon. It's something to consider I guess.
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Allow the Master Craftsman feat, as a trait, and remove the skill prerequisites.
Done.
Of course, if a much more complicated system, involving change to tons of fundamental rules, is more your style, then go for it.
I prefer simplicity myself.
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Magic items still exist, but they're only magic if they are ACTUALLY MAGIC. Numerical enhancement bonuses are completely metagame and break my suspension of disbelief less if they're a result of superb craftsmanship. i.e. The sword is deadlier because it's of exceptional craftsmanship, finer steel, and better balance, not because magic guides your swing or anything. If you want a sword that overcomes DR/magic...it should be MAGIC, like flaming or bane.
Clearly, this is all personal opinion though.
Personally, I don't see magic weapons as "guiding your hand", I always saw it as making the weapon more than you can from human skill alone. A magic sword has a blade that is sharper than you can obtain with mundane skill, making the sword both better able to cut through armor and more damaging when it hits. Blunt weapons are made denser, likewise.
It's like getting a vibroblade or a monowire weapon in a sci-fi setting, where technology takes the place of magic in making something better than human skill alone can accomplish.