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So I was looking into changing the casting system for clerics to the petition system presented in green ronin's Trojan war supplement.
Basically the cleric/warpriest has all their spell slots (save osirions) turned into one big pool of unset spell slots. Whenever the cleric casts the cleric basically petitions god to give him whatever spell he asks for. The catch is that they can only call up to certain level of spell (usually tracking to their normal spell progression) and whenever they cast a spell they have to make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level) or the spell fails.
Now I'm wondering what people think of this as a solid replacement for the standard casting of the cleric/warpriest, what are any advantages or disadvantages you could see this bringing to the class, finally does it feel like it gives more of a cleric theme then the normal casting setup?
One of the big things I see is you're not likely to succeed at casting anything for a few levels at least not with any reliability. My math may be off, but it looks like you'll have roughly a 65% spell failure rate with level one spells (assuming no Int bonus, but taking max spellcraft and skill focus - which everyone will with a system like this).
How, exactly, is the pool you're describing different than the usual spell progression if it pretty much tracks to their normal spell progression anyway? Do you mean it's akin to the psionic class or the various spell pools wizards end up getting whenever someone rewrites them?
If so, then it would make sense the cleric could burn it up on one high-level spell normally uncastable at their current level. For instance, if the pool at 1st level is, say, 2 (representing 1 point per first level spell, and taking into account the fact that a cleric can cast two first level spells, albeit with one from their chosen domain) but a single 2nd-level spell costs 2 points, then the cleric could cast that instead of their normal allotment.
I'm curious as to your rationale for the spell failure rate. Arcane casters have the (bad) excuse of armor getting in the way of their (apparently more intricate than described) gestures. Does it represent a possible lack of faith? That the deities aren't that reliable? At least in the case of trying to cast a spell from a higher range than usual, it makes sense because the cleric would have to try and focus their faith into the spell - which might not be easy.
Arcane casters have the (bad) excuse of armor getting in the way of their (apparently more intricate than described) gestures.
Cold iron, or iron forged on a cold anvil, was a folklore-based means of warding off fey, witches, ghosts, and so on. I'd wager Gygax took this idea and used it as a reason armor wouldn't work for spellcasters - the life-blood of the earth interfered with the use of magic. Unfortunately, they went with the idea that it interfered with movement instead and stuck with it.
In my home setting, witch hunters use iron manacles and leg bindings, which provide a 75% spell failure rate for an 11th level caster (-5/+5 per level under or over for the caster). Gives me a great excuse for how townsfolk can capture and burn casters at the stake, while allowing high level casters an excuse to escape and the town needing adventurers help.
Back on topic, I think any casting mechanic change should apply to all casters equally. Is it only clerics who suffer from unreliable magic?
Cold iron, or iron forged on a cold anvil, was a folklore-based means of warding off fey, witches, ghosts, and so on. I'd wager Gygax took this idea and used it as a reason armor wouldn't work for spellcasters - the life-blood of the earth interfered with the use of magic. Unfortunately, they went with the idea that it interfered with movement instead and stuck with it.
In my home setting, witch hunters use iron manacles and leg bindings, which provide a 75% spell failure rate for an 11th level caster (-5/+5 per level under or over for the caster). Gives me a great excuse for how townsfolk can capture and burn casters at the stake, while allowing high level casters an excuse to escape and the town needing adventurers help.
Back on topic, I think any casting mechanic change should apply to all casters equally. Is it only clerics who suffer from unreliable magic?
Oh, I'm aware of cold iron, and I agree it's likely what he probably intended. I think that your home setting is pretty neat, though I'd probably remove the restriction altogether since I'm not fond of squishy wizards (however, I am fond of doing not-nice things to casters because I tend to think channeling raw magical energies through ones body ought to have unfortunate consequences).
I was assuming Doc simply left the normal armor cast failure rate in place, but it might not be equal to the rate the clerics fail if your math is right. If anything, it would be a bit of a problem if the folks who claim to be channeling the powers of the deities fail to do so more often than those wielding raw arcane might. I'd wonder why I'd bother worshiping a deity that can't seem to provide when arcanists can. Of course, that could have a neat parallel to real life if arcane magic is seen or treated like science. However, I think it would be important for the clerics to succeed in some really spectacular ways when they do succeed.
Have you looked at Miracles and Wonders from adamant press. It's an alternative magic system for Divine spell casters. Divine Casters have to balance Grace and Hubris and use those stats when asking their God for miracles.
To get a Miracle they have to perform rituals and prayers. Bigger the miracle the longer the prayer but they can do it fast by spending Grace. After the ritual is finished they make a Check. Fail and nothing happens, succeed and God lends a hand. You can spend Grace or Gain Hubris to get bonuses on the roll.
You get Grace by following the doctrine of your faith and you get Hubris for doing things your god doesn't like or calling on him too much.
Too much Hubris and God slaps you upside the head.
Oh, I'm aware of cold iron, and I agree it's likely what he probably intended. I think that your home setting is pretty neat, though I'd probably remove the restriction altogether since I'm not fond of squishy wizards (however, I am fond of doing not-nice things to casters because I tend to think channeling raw magical energies through ones body ought to have unfortunate consequences).
I figured I'd err on the side of caution and thanks! I really enjoy little things like that which can be taken from folklore and applied. As far as casters & not nice things, I'm big on that.
I was assuming Doc simply left the normal armor cast failure rate in place, but it might not be equal to the rate the clerics fail if your math is right. If anything, it would be a bit of a problem if the folks who claim to be channeling the powers of the deities fail to do so more often than those wielding raw arcane might. I'd wonder why I'd bother worshiping a deity that can't seem to provide when arcanists can.
I'd like to know that, too. I'm not sure of what he intends of envisions for his world and on that note, could you provide us more details, Doc?
Of course, that could have a neat parallel to real life if arcane magic is seen or treated like science. However, I think it would be important for the clerics to succeed in some really spectacular ways when they do succeed.
That would be pretty neat and has the plus side of a very "gothic earth" style.
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How, exactly, is the pool you're describing different than the usual spell progression if it pretty much tracks to their normal spell progression anyway? Do you mean it's akin to the psionic class or the various spell pools wizards end up getting whenever someone rewrites them?
If so, then it would make sense the cleric could burn it up on one high-level spell normally uncastable at their current level. For instance, if the pool at 1st level is, say, 2 (representing 1 point per first level spell, and taking into account the fact that a cleric can cast two first level spells, albeit with one from their chosen domain) but a single 2nd-level spell costs 2 points, then the cleric could cast that instead of their normal allotment.
I'm curious as to your rationale for the spell failure rate. Arcane casters have the (bad) excuse of armor getting in the way of their (apparently more intricate than described) gestures. Does it represent a possible lack of faith? That the deities aren't that reliable? At least in the case of trying to cast a spell from a higher range than usual, it makes sense because the cleric would have to try and focus their faith into the spell - which might not be easy.
No it's that they still have spell slots they are just not locked to a certain level. For example
At 10th level instead of a cleric having 4 1st level spell slots, 4 2nd level spell slots, 3 3rd level spell slots, 3 4th level spell slots, and 2 5th level spell slots (along with 1 domain spell slot at each level) they would have 16 slots that could be ANY SPELL LEVEL they can cast (so up to 5th in this example) and 5 domains slots that function the same.
So basically if your cleric can hit the caster level checks they can have 16 5th level spell slots.
Also remember the check is Caster Level not spellcraft
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I'm curious as to your rationale for the spell failure rate. Arcane casters have the (bad) excuse of armor getting in the way of their (apparently more intricate than described) gestures. Does it represent a possible lack of faith? That the deities aren't that reliable? At least in the case of trying to cast a spell from a higher range than usual, it makes sense because the cleric would have to try and focus their faith into the spell - which might not be easy.
Sorry I didn't answer this in the last post but it's kind of a twofold answer. Mechanically the check (CL check DC 20+spell level) is to help keep a player from easily turning all of their spell slots into the highest level spell they can cast. Thematically you hit the nail on the head, the cleric is not throwing out spells that he "prepared" that morning so much as pleading with god on the spot to give him the gifts or punish the enemies as he is asking with those who are more experienced (i.e. higher level and therefore having spent more time and energy getting closer to god, gaining their trust, and learning how to ask them) having an easier time asking for what they want.
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I was assuming Doc simply left the normal armor cast failure rate in place, but it might not be equal to the rate the clerics fail if your math is right. If anything, it would be a bit of a problem if the folks who claim to be channeling the powers of the deities fail to do so more often than those wielding raw arcane might. I'd wonder why I'd bother worshiping a deity that can't seem to provide when arcanists can.I'd like to know that, too. I'm not sure of what he intends of envisions for his world and on that note, could you provide us more details, Doc?
Of course, that could have a neat parallel to real life if arcane magic is seen or treated like science. However, I think it would be important for the clerics to succeed in some really spectacular ways when they do succeed.That would be pretty neat and has the plus side of a very "gothic earth" style.
Good questions and I am happy to see some responses to this ^-^
k on the first question arcane spell failure stays the same (remember it does not effect divine casters). The big reasoning is because of what was mentioned above, basically once a warpriest or a cleric gets to a level where they can cast a certain level of spell (like say hitting 5th and being able to cast 3rd level spells) he can potentially use ALL of his spell slots to cast 3rd level spells.
As for how the world envisions them I feel like the structure in my home game remains largely the same with arcane magic being more like a science that is repeatable and academic (to a point) while this plays up more the power of the religions and the might they can wield. Sure a cleric of 10th level may drop spells more then a wizard of equal level but he has the potential to turn all of his spell slots into his HIGHEST LEVEL SLOTS. So like a 10th level cleric could raise dead 16 times in a day, summon 16 swarms of wasps, Commune with his god 16 times, Summon an army of 56 ghouls and 16 ghasts that explode when they die (ghoul army), or potentially any combination of those spells or lower.
In other words it's dangerous to piss of a wizard, it can be suicidal to annoy a cleric.
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I've always thought clerics should be spontaneous casters. It would make them much more versatile yet let the have access to all those boring spells like Bless that would be most clerics' bread and butter. But with their infinite spell list, that might be too much flexibility. So give them a 'prayer book' that they can discover new prayers and add too, and they can spontaneously cast any prayer in their book.
That seems absolutely broken as hell. Clerics are already OP, and you want to give them MORE power and flexibility?
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That seems absolutely broken as hell. Clerics are already OP, and you want to give them MORE power and flexibility?
because they still have to hit a DC 29 CL check every time they want to cast a 9th level spell.
Remember to cast they need to make a CL check with a DC of 20+spell level every time they cast.
As for the spontaneous casting Mosaic, I can see that but at the same time we
1. have the Oracle filling that slot (which is awesome and I don't want to overshadow by having the same mechanic)
2. that still leaves the cleric limited which feels really off considering all the mythology and stories surrounding holy men in human history. These are the guys who could ask for and ostensibly get anything they wanted because their god (a supernatural super being had their back) and all they had to do was keep in its favor which was often the more difficult dangerous task then whatever they needed from him lol.
I tried a mechanic as sort of brain exercise not too long ago, but it was pretty much ignored by the forum community, either due to lack of interest, they thought it was dumb, or some other explanation.
Regardless, no one was interested. However, it might help you with your project: Variant Spellcasting.
Be pretty easy to change it to "your spells fail after you build up enough Enervation" instead of the penalties I have listed.
Edit: I should add, I never got far enough into it to determine if it was in any way, shape, or form balanced.
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I tried a mechanic as sort of brain exercise not too long ago, but it was pretty much ignored by the forum community, either due to lack of interest, they thought it was dumb, or some other explanation.
Regardless, no one was interested. However, it might help you with your project: Variant Spellcasting.
Be pretty easy to change it to "your spells fail after you build up enough Enervation" instead of the penalties I have listed.
Edit: I should add, I never got far enough into it to determine if it was in any way, shape, or form balanced.
Replying from my phone now so I apologize for spelling errors.
It seems kind of cool but it feels more like something to use with arcane magic than divine magic since it involves mechanics built around the strain of harnessing and wielding it alone. With divine magic I see the "magical strain" of wielding said magic as something that is largely eliminated as your divine patron's might and your faith in them creating the stabilizing force needed to make it more assured.The tradeoff of course is that you have to keep your god happy and make sure to stay in their favor.
Ohh the other interesting option this brings up is role playing options, like if you brick your rolls for like a whole game day and your cleric takes it as a sign of his God's displeasure.
To answer the OP: I see it having better flavor. Now, are you prepared to extend this to all divine spellcasters? Clerics are the go-to for removing annoying statuses. If the party keeps getting hit with statuses, and they can't remove them, then it's going to cause trouble. Also, what are you doing for wizards and sorcerers?
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To answer the OP: I secastingcving better flavor. Now, are you prepared to extend this to all divine spellcasters? Clerics are the go-to for removing annoying statuses. If the party keeps getting hit with statuses, and they can't remove them, then it's going to cause trouble. Also, what are you doing for wizards and sorcerers?
No wizards & sorcs stay the same since they aren't beseeching the gods to cast their spells and are instead relying on their trained understanding of magic and the difficulty inherent in shouldering the burden of channeling that raw magical power without the stabilizing power of a god.
Meanwhile oracle and inquisitor (and likely druids) casting method remains unchanged since their spellcasting is not innately beholden to faith in a specific deity or philosophy.
That being said my current patch for the healing thing is that they don't have to make a CL check when casting cure or inflict spells as determined by their channel power. So if you already get spont cures you now don't have to make the CL check to cast them.
Not worried about the hp restoration. I'm worried about dealing with these:
ability damage/drain
blindness
deafness
fatigue
exhaustion
poison
disease
negative levels
curses (less so; this one's on the sor/wiz list)
death (druids get reincarnate)
etc.
You know, that whole section of conditions in the back of the Core rulebook.
Also, clerics are not in Core all beholden to deities any more than any other divine spellcaster. They too can worship philosophies and ideals. Druids can worship nature deities, eg Gozreh.
Depending on the way your games go, I'd probably expect to see fewer spellcasting clerics and more often oracles, druids, and bards as go-to men (and women) for dealing with healing of stubbed toes, negative levels, etc. Oracles have limited spells known. When it comes time to fix those annoying statuses, they may or may not have the right tool. A cleric is probably more likely to have the right spell.
Ultimately, let's ask this: will your cleric players enjoy having their primary class feature fail on them? Will they then seek out feats, traits, magic items, etc. to boost their caster level checks? In other words, will it be fun for clerics? Considering that an 18th level cleric needs a 3 or better on a d20 to cast a basic protection from evil spell, without adjustments like those I mentioned. At low levels, forget about casting at all. You'll need a 20 to get your spell off. Other people will have class features that are a lot more reliable than that at low levels.
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Not worried about the hp restoration. I'm worried about dealing with these:
ability damage/drain
blindness
deafness
fatigue
exhaustion
poison
disease
negative levels
curses (less so; this one's on the sor/wiz list)
death (druids get reincarnate)
etc.You know, that whole section of conditions in the back of the Core rulebook.
Also, clerics are not in Core all beholden to deities any more than any other divine spellcaster. They too can worship philosophies and ideals. Druids can worship nature deities, eg Gozreh.
Depending on the way your games go, I'd probably expect to see fewer spellcasting clerics and more often oracles, druids, and bards as go-to men (and women) for dealing with healing of stubbed toes, negative levels, etc. Oracles have limited spells known. When it comes time to fix those annoying statuses, they may or may not have the right tool. A cleric is probably more likely to have the right spell.
Ultimately, let's ask this: will your cleric players enjoy having their primary class feature fail on them? Will they then seek out feats, traits, magic items, etc. to boost their caster level checks? In other words, will it be fun for clerics? Considering that an 18th level cleric needs a 3 or better on a d20 to cast a basic protection from evil spell, without adjustments like those I mentioned. At low levels, forget about casting at all. You'll need a 20 to get your spell off. Other people will have class features that are a lot more reliable than that at low levels.
For the sake of argument for my home game clerics and warpriests at least have to follow a god or religion within so the issue of a philosophy cleric hasn't really come up. but say you wanted to apply said idea to a philosophy based cleric rather than a straight up god worshiper I would play it as the cleric petitioning his idea or the concept to give him what he wants since as his clerical philosophy he is deriving his magic from his faith in said belief and the stabilizing effect it brings when channeling that power to him.
Also with you on how much casting sucks at the lower levels. Me and a buddy were batting around the low level problem most of the night so and here's some of the ideas we started throwing around.
You can safely cast your 0's, spontaneous spells, and domains without having to make a check. These are all either the most basic abilities they have as pare of being a cleric or are the iconic powers of your cleric's interpretation of his faith and should be therefore safer and easier to cast. A god of fire and healing wants to make sure that when you show off that aspect of your faith you can at least do it well and those spells usually will be fulfilling it's needs in just about any circumstance you are using them in.
The other alleviation is that you also start with more petitions than a cleric has spells for that day at lower levels.
for example: A cleric gets 4 0 lvl spell slots, 1 1st, and 1 1st level domain slot at first by normal rules and excluding bonus spells
A cleric with petitions gets ALL 0 lvl spells, 4 untyped petition slots (which right now are only 1st levels but need to keep with the theme), and 1 domain slot.
The other idea we were messing with was making the DC 15+spell level (or double spell level) or making it a concentration check.
Another one was the idea that at certain points in leveling (4th and every 4th thereafter) the lowest level petitions would be free casts. So at like 4th you no longer have to roll to throw down a 1st level spell.
if anyone has some thoughts or critiques of these or ways to alleviate the suck of earlier levels (1-10th) I would love to hear them.