Ring of Jumping and acrobatics question

[foolsjourney]

We have a rogue in the party with +13 on Acrobatics, and is additionally equipped with a Ring of Jumping.

So, what constitutes high or long jumping, as per the ring's usability? If she were to attempt to jump over the enemy, say a dwarf fighter, and land immediately behind him to potentially flank, does this count as high/long, or is it just moving through a threatened square so the ring doesn't apply?

Ta in advance.

[Mojorat]

Doing super hero or Wuxia style jumping in Pathfinder is diffult. Really only Monks and Possibly Ninja can do it.

High jump is how high off the ground you are going, Longjump is distance.

A good rule of thumb to solve headaches is to assume if you long jump you go 1/4 of the distance jumped in hight. This is not spelled out anywhere but the math for the DC's works out identical.

Essentially, jumping 20 feet (4 squares) is DC 20. Provided your Rogue got 20' of movement before the jump he can with the ring make it on a 2.

But to your Dwarf opponent example it would probably be a DC 20 check to just jump over his head. However he would get to AOO your rogue as he sailed over.

Jumping high enough to avoid the AOO would be DC 40.

I hope this helped.

Anyhow there are tables explaining what high and long jumps are in the core book under the acrobatics skill.

[foolsjourney]

Thanks. That helps quite a lot.

I'm taking the abstraction of the height of s given square occupied by a small/medium creature as creature height + around 2', with some flexibility based on encumbrance, armour and weapon wielded.

Would it be unreasonable to say the ring only applies to jump attempts greater than that, and anything lower would be the standard acrobatics vs CMD+5, (and the rogue calling which she was attempting before the roll)?

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Ring of Jumping gives you a +5 to acrobatics when making a jump. That's whether it's a big jump or not.

[foolsjourney]

Thanks Durngrun.

That's interesting, and great to know, as I've been reading the rules for Acrobatics differently.

My reading was that it can be used EITHER for evading an AoO when moving through a threatened or occupied square, OR for jumping high/long, and that they were distinct separate uses of the skill. When the ring description then said it applied specifically to the high/long, my reasoning was that it couldn't be applied to the jumping through a threatened or occupied square.

Wow. It's a very cheap item if it allows +5 to that too- it effectively negates the +5 to opponent's CMD. I think my player will like this news.

Ta muchly good sirs.

[kinevon]

foolsjourney wrote:

Thanks Durngrun.

That's interesting, and great to know, as I've been reading the rules for Acrobatics differently.

My reading was that it can be used EITHER for evading an AoO when moving through a threatened or occupied square, OR for jumping high/long, and that they were distinct separate uses of the skill. When the ring description then said it applied specifically to the high/long, my reasoning was that it couldn't be applied to the jumping through a threatened or occupied square.

Wow. It's a very cheap item if it allows +5 to that too- it effectively negates the +5 to opponent's CMD. I think my player will like this news.

Ta muchly good sirs.

The acrobatics check to avoid an AoO is a tumble check, not a jump check. I think Durngrun was simply pointing out that the ring applies to any attempt to jump.

The item the PC probably wants are boots of elvenkind, that apply a +5 competence bonus to Acrobatics, in general.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Just to be clear, the acrobatic check to jump and an acrobatic check to avoid an attack of opportunity are two different checks. The only way the jump check would avoid an AoO is if the player jumped completely over the opponent's threatened area. So jumping over a medium creature would mean jumping from more than five feet in front of it, clearing the top of the creature by five feet, and then landing more than five feet behind it. Otherwise you are making an acrobatic check to jump, to which the ring would apply, and an acrobatic check to tumble, to which the ring would not apply.

[foolsjourney]

kinevon wrote:

The acrobatics check to avoid an AoO is a tumble check, not a jump check. I think Durngrun was simply pointing out that the ring applies to any attempt to jump.

You see, this is curious, because that was the case in D&D 3.5, but nowhere in the core rulebook under acrobatics and threatened squares do the words tumble, roll or any other such descriptive language apply. It simply says move through an opponent's or threatened square.

I come from a D&D background so I've been playing it as you describe- two separate checks for unhindered jumping (high or long) and 'tumbling' as we always have; I used the imagery of tumbling in the description to my players, but on closer scrutiny assuming no prior knowledge, if the PC says they are attempting to leap through said square, the rules no longer describe tumbling or rolling. They simply state 'to move through a threatened square'.

I think I shall go back to my previous ruling:

the height of a given square occupied by a small/medium creature is equal to creature height + around 2', with some modifiers based on that creature's encumbrance, armour, weapon wielded, conditions underfoot etc. The ring will only apply to jump attempts greater than that, and anything lower would be the standard acrobatics vs CMD+5.

:-)

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Tumble was a skill in 3.5. In Pathfinder, balance, jump, and tumble were combined into acrobatics. The book tells you what skill to use and what the DC is for the check. How you describe it is entirely up to you.

[kinevon]

Please take a look at the skill description again.

Move on a narrow or uneven surface. Move at half speed if successful.

Move past/through an opponent's threatened area/space. Move at half speed, do not provoke if successful, failing the move through is fall prone and provoke an AoO. Move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10.

Jump as part of a move. Long jumps and high jumps are referenced here only. No move half, but cannot exceed normal movement.

The PRD does not include some of the information on jumping and tumbling. It does not include the fall prone information on failing the move through an opponent's space, for example.

So, moving through a threatened space, or through an opponent's square, is not a jump, it is a move.

[LuniasM]

Take a look at The Quarterstaff of Vaulting. When using this item you can vault over a creature's head with a DC 25 acrobatics check, no jumping required. Without this item it's pretty hard to pull off.

[Mojorat]

Or just read th ring which explains it only helps part PFS th skill.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Mojorat wrote:

Or just read th ring which explains it only helps part PFS th skill.

You have got to get a bigger keypad on your phone! (Emoticon that denotes I'm joking)

[Gwen Smith]

kinevon wrote:

Please take a look at the skill description again.

Move on a narrow or uneven surface. Move at half speed if successful.

Move past/through an opponent's threatened area/space. Move at half speed, do not provoke if successful, failing the move through is fall prone and provoke an AoO. Move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10.

Jump as part of a move. Long jumps and high jumps are referenced here only. No move half, but cannot exceed normal movement.

The PRD does not include some of the information on jumping and tumbling. It does not include the fall prone information on failing the move through an opponent's space, for example.

Where does the "fall prone on failing to move through an opponent's space" come from? I have never seen that outside of the messageboards, not in a rule book or in game play.

And the PRD is an official source--probably the best official source. It contains all the text of the listed sources with all the errata already applied. If the "fall prone when you fail to move through an opponent's space" isn't in the PRD, where exactly does it come from?

[Mojorat]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

Or just read th ring which explains it only helps part PFS th skill.

You have got to get a bigger keypad on your phone! (Emoticon that denotes I'm joking)

Sigh I noticed lately its tried auto correct for specific game terms. So ill be talking sbout grapple and mid sentence it will say sandpoont.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Mojorat wrote:

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Mojorat wrote:

Or just read th ring which explains it only helps part PFS th skill.

You have got to get a bigger keypad on your phone! (Emoticon that denotes I'm joking)

Sigh I noticed lately its tried auto correct for specific game terms. So ill be talking sbout grapple and mid sentence it will say sandpoont.

I honestly don't know if you are joking or not but if you are, you are hilarious. I tip my hat to you, sir.

[foolsjourney]

Mojorat wrote:

Or just read the ring which explains it only helps part PFS th skill.

Not helpful. Before advising to 'just read the ring', just read the original post.

As I said way back in the original post, I know what the description of the ring says in the book. The ring gives a bonus on high/long jumps. That's understood. I also knew that the acrobatics was split into distinct parts. I didn't even doubt that until someone else brought it up in a subsequent post.

The question is what differentiates passing through the threatened square as per Acrobatics and leaping over its occupant, as per Acrobatics jumping high/long.

My player, who has never read/played AD&D, and won't be going on here, the PRD, D20pfsrd, or any other online source, has asked where it says about tumbling in the official core rulebook. And of course it doesn't specifically.

The more helpful members have helped me deal with it when it comes up next session. To those I offer my thanks.

[kinevon]

Gwen Smith wrote:

kinevon wrote:

Please take a look at the skill description again.

Move on a narrow or uneven surface. Move at half speed if successful.

Move past/through an opponent's threatened area/space. Move at half speed, do not provoke if successful, failing the move through is fall prone and provoke an AoO. Move at full speed by increasing the DC by 10.

Jump as part of a move. Long jumps and high jumps are referenced here only. No move half, but cannot exceed normal movement.

The PRD does not include some of the information on jumping and tumbling. It does not include the fall prone information on failing the move through an opponent's space, for example.

Where does the "fall prone on failing to move through an opponent's space" come from? I have never seen that outside of the messageboards, not in a rule book or in game play.

And the PRD is an official source--probably the best official source. It contains all the text of the listed sources with all the errata already applied. If the "fall prone when you fail to move through an opponent's space" isn't in the PRD, where exactly does it come from?

I have no idea where it came from, probably someone (mis?)quoting a JJ post somewhere. Just reread the PRD, and you are right, just fail and provoke.

I still learn something new on occasion...

[Cevah]

Mojorat wrote:

A good rule of thumb to solve headaches is to assume if you long jump you go 1/4 of the distance jumped in hight. This is not spelled out anywhere but the math for the DC's works out identical.

CRB p437 wrote:

Above and Beneath the Streets

Use the guidelines in the Acrobatics skill (a horizontal jump’s peak height is one-fourth of the horizontal distance) to determine whether a character can make a jump.

/cevah