Melee Touch Attack Question

[Falgaia]

So I have a quick question that I can't seem to find the answer to. If you were, say, a Cleric, and you want to use one of your touch-attack based Domain powers, can you just substitute the touch attack for one of your normal melee attacks?

Example: If Bob the Cleric were to have a +6/+1 BAB and had two different Domain touch attacks, could he choose to use two touch attacks, or would he have to choose between attacking twice with his sword or using only one touch attack?

For all intents and purposes, I'm asking if touch attacks can be subbed in like a Disarm/Trip/Sunder maneuver.

While I'm here, I'm also curious as to whether or not a missed Cleric domain power counts as a wasted charge? I read somewhere that, at least for spells, the spell's energy only discharges upon a successful attack, allowing the caster multiple chances to hit without as much of a chance to blow a spell slot. Do Cleric domain powers work similarly?

Thanks in advance!

[Imbicatus]

No, most if not all of those Touch attacks have "as a standard action" in their description. That locks out using them as part of a full attack action.

[Falgaia]

Imbicatus wrote:

No, most if not all of those Touch attacks have "as a standard action" in their description. That locks out using them as part of a full attack action.

What about domain powers like Vision of Madness (Madness domain) and Hell's Corruption (Devil subdomain)? They aren't specifically listed as a Standard Action, so would they be viable for something like this?

[Hendelbolaf]

Like Imbicatus said, if it says "as a standard action", then, no, it cannot be used as a part of a full attack which is a full-round action.

If you were to cast, however, an Inflict Light Wounds spell, the following round you could make an attack with your open handing holding the spell. If it was successful and you had a weapon in your other hand, then you could make a second attack with your weapon provided your BAB was more than +6 and you met the other criteria (did not use a move action, etc).

If you missed with the touch attack to deliver the spell, then you could use any other attacks to attempt to deliver it as well.

The domain powers vary by description. What one in particular were you looking to use like this?

Edit: Vision of Madness is a spell-like ability so it by default a standard action. So it would act like the spell situation I described above.

Hell's Corruption is a supernatural ability and still requires a standard action unless mentioned otherwise. So it would be the same as above.

[Falgaia]

Hendelbolaf wrote:

Like Imbicatus said, if it says "as a standard action", then, no, it cannot be used as a part of a full attack which is a full-round action.

If you were to cast, however, an Inflict Light Wounds spell, the following round you could make an attack with your open handing holding the spell. If it was successful and you had a weapon in your other hand, then you could make a second attack with your weapon provided your BAB was more than +6 and you met the other criteria (did not use a move action, etc).

If you missed with the touch attack to deliver the spell, then you could use any other attacks to attempt to deliver it as well.

The domain powers vary by description. What one in particular were you looking to use like this?

Edit: Vision of Madness is a spell-like ability so it by default a standard action. So it would act like the spell situation I described above.

Hell's Corruption is a supernatural ability and still requires a standard action unless mentioned otherwise. So it would be the same as above.

Ah, ok. So basically, the ability type is important in determining what type of action it is. I had missed that part. I'm still somewhat confused as to whether or not it would waste one of your daily charges if you were to miss, although I'm assuming that would be the case?

[Hendelbolaf]

Falgaia wrote:

I'm still somewhat confused as to whether or not it would waste one of your daily charges if you were to miss, although I'm assuming that would be the case?

Usually, the answer is, no, you do not lose a spell or effect that requires a carrier melee touch attack to deliver the effect if you miss. Now, if you cast something else or activate a different ability, then you would lose the spell or effect.

"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Using a spell-like ability works like casting a spell in that it requires concentration and provokes attacks of opportunity. Spell-like abilities can be disrupted. If your concentration is broken, the attempt to use the ability fails, but the attempt counts as if you had used the ability. The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."

So the "works like casting a spell" would indicate to me that you could hold the charge like this:

"Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."

Unfortunately, supernatural abilities are a little vague on the subject.

"Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

So those might be a DM call but I would not have a problem of those fitting under the Holding the Charge rules.

[James Risner]

Imbicatus wrote:

No, most if not all of those Touch attacks have "as a standard action" in their description. That locks out using them as part of a full attack action.

All Supernatural, Spell Like Abilities, and Extraordinary Abilities are explicitly Standard actions unless they explicitly say otherwise.

[Kaboogy]

Just to be clear, if I use for example the death domain

bleeding touch:

Bleeding Touch (Sp): As a melee touch attack, you can cause a living creature to take 1d6 points of damage per round. This effect persists for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1) or until stopped with a DC 15 Heal check or any spell or effect that heals damage. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

I can't use it in a full-attack?

[dragonhunterq]

Kaboogy wrote:

Just to be clear, if I use for example the death domain ** spoiler omitted ** I can't use it in a full-attack?

As has been stated, not in the round you cast it. If you cast it and hold the charge you can use it as part of a full attack the following round.

It's not usually worth it, but it is good to know for those times you need it.

Also worth spelling out you can't (usually) use a shield while full attacking like this, as you need one hand to hold the charge and one to hold a weapon .

[Kaizer0002]

I had a similar question and this forum is the most similar place. I am putting together a Lich who is an oracle of bones and agent of the grave. Across all all 3, you get 3 supernatural touch attacks. I assume you can use 2 of them once your attack bonus reaches +6, but I don't know if you can dual wield them. It'd not actually be that much healing at high levels for a full round action even when dual wielding when compared to just casting harm. I also don't know if you can combine it with an inflict spell.

Death’s Touch (Su)

Spoiler:

You can cause terrible wounds to appear on a creature with a melee touch attack. This attack deals 1d6 points of negative energy damage +1 point for every two oracle levels you possess. If used against an undead creature, it heals damage and grants a +2 channel resistance for 1 minute. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Lich's Touch (Su)

Spoiler:

At 1st level, the Agent of the Grave becomes a conduit for negative energy and the chill powers of death, allowing him to make a melee touch attack dealing 1d6 points of damage from negative energy per level of the Agent of the Grave class he attains. This ability allows him to heal undead minions, and himself upon attaining the negative energy affinity ability at 4th level. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma bonus.

Lich's Melee Attack

Spoiler:

A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round as a natural weapon. A lich fighting without weapons uses its natural weapons (if it has any) in addition to its touch attack (which is treated as a primary natural weapon that replaces one claw or slam attack, if the creature has any). A lich armed with a weapon uses its weapons normally, and can use its touch attack as a secondary natural weapon.

[Umbranus]

There is a way to use two domain powers in the same turn but it requires some investment:
You need a conductive weapon and the domain strike feat (for own safety add IUS). For your first attack you hit the enemy with an unarmed strike. If it hits you can spend a swift action to deliver the domain power for which you have domain strike. Then you switch to your conductive weapon and do the iterative with that. If you hit you can expend two uses of your domain power to deliver the power through your weapon.

I use the unarmed strike first because it only uses up one use from your domain power. So if you miss you can try again and thus save uses.