| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to suggest alternative subscription shipping schemes to help save on shipping. With shipping an AP module by itself adding 30% to the cost of a module, I'm considering cancelling my subscription for APs until there is one I'm sure I will run. If there was a way to combine shipping I'd keep subscribing. I wanted to know what other people thought.
Some ideas:
An AP subscription that ships once Modules 1-3 are available for an AP;
An AP subscription that ships once Modules 1-6 are available for an AP;
An AP subscription that ships once something is added to the sidecart;
An AP subscription that ships once the total of the subscription and sidecart reach a certain dollar value ($100/200/300?).
An AP subscription that ships once a user tells it to.
I don't know if this is even possible for Paizo but I'd like to put it out there (and of course it could apply to other subscription products). Shipping is a huge percentage of my cost and is pushing me to think harder about subscribing.
Thoughts?
They clearly hold sufficient stock of printed APs to continue selling them for years after their release. I recognize that if a large number of subscribers opted for this option it may increase their storage space needs and complicate... etc. But how much? It might not be very much (though if lots of people switch, they would have a huge work-load bulge at Modules 3 or 6).
I love Paizo. I give them lots of money. I enjoy doing business with them. I'm thinking of doing less business because of how much it costs... so I'm making a suggestion that may help them both with keeping me on board and perhaps others. I buy a lot of products from Paizo thanks to the AP subscriber discount model, so it is in their interest to keep me and other subscribing. That's a huge part of the Paizo business model.
For a long time I thought of my AP subscription as a subscription to Dungeon magazine. But a magazine that costs me $22.92 a month with shipping is a very expensive magazine. That's money I'm not spending on hardcovers like the new Bestiary, on Pathfinder Battles, on pawns and cards and other such things. My alternative is to skip entire APs, and during that period, without the subscriber discount, I will not be buying other products from Paizo.com at all.
I suspect cash flow would be an issue (regardless of what some companies do, they're not allowed to charge your card until the product ships). I guess they could enforce an "only available if you have sufficient store credit pre-purchased for your order" prerequisite, but I don't think Gary would enjoy that.
Another issue is that complication leads to user error leads to extra customer service work. Imagine the customers who forget to cancel and don't watch the site for six months - then get billed for an entire AP they don't want.
There's also the issue of the pathfinder advantage - if I'm subscribed but not actually receiving monthly shipments until late in the piece, do I get my 15% off a paizo PDF in the meantime? What if I then cancel?
I sympathise with those who only have one subscription - postage is a huge percentage then. I'm not sure there's an easy solution though. At one point I suggested a "premium subscriber" option where you would pay more to get your subscription shipped first each month. Something like that might enable paizo to discount the regular subscriber postage. I suspect there'd be significant opposition from the fans though (not to mention the inefficiencies introduced to the shipping procedure which has already shown signs of stress recently).
You guys make some good points. I would be curious to know if Paizo has a sense how much of their market looks like me. People who spend a reasonable amount and have been long-time subscribers but are getting a little tired of how much they are spending (particularly in shipping). My bookshelf is filling up with APs and I feel less and less interested in new volumes.
I'm feeling product-line fatigue and trying to discuss a business solution that keeps Paizo's subscriber base as strong as possible taking customers like me into consideration. With the current age of the Pathfinder product-lines I suspect I'm not alone in feeling this way.
Pathfinder products have had a quality and consistency above that of other companies and I'd like to see them stay strong. But they are not a charity and they sell luxury/entertainment goods. I'm a customer and I need to be convinced to part with my money. Take my money Paizo!
There have been quite a number of discussion threads started or attended by Paizo staff soliciting information and insight into business questions. Paizo staff spend significant time on the forums to gather just such information. It is one thing to track sales and another to understand the reasoning behind the numbers.
The answer for me is clear. Without an alternative such as the ones listed above I'm going to buy a lot less from Paizo. If there is a small chance I can swing things towards a better deal for myself and Paizo by talking about it here, why shouldn't I try?
It is very easy to not get what you want by not asking and this has led plenty of businesses to fold. Paizo has done so well both with their initial magazine business and later with their Pathfinder product line by careful study of the market and product design. I hope that this thread contributes to the pool "held close to their chest."
Of course I'd like it even more if a staffer weighed in... but =)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think Sun is looking for Paizo to share their insight on customer trends in an open forum. What Sun is trying to do is let Paizo know that s/he is about to vote with her/his wallet and offering a number of ways by which Paizo may keep her/his business.
Any company would be smart to listen to customers who are willing to share information like that. Market research is a mixed bag and can cost a bunch of cash. There is also the notion (widely accepted by marketers, pollsters, and advertisers) that for each person who is vocal about a concern that as many as a 1000 will be silent.
I'm not suggesting that Paizo follow Sun's recommendations, but hearing and acknowledging them seems to be exactly what this forum in meant for. YMMV.
Bang-on, BigDTBone.
Telling him - or even implying - that Paizo doesn't need to know anything about him and he should just quit and go away is not only unhelpful, it's rude (and possibly frighteningly sycophantic).
I offered him options. his situation sounds very much like he'd be much better off going to a local store and buying what he wants there. Shipping can be a deal breaker if you're only buying one subscription. But expecting Paizo to base it's business around outlier cases is a bit much to ask for.Bang-on, BigDTBone.
Telling him - or even implying - that Paizo doesn't need to know anything about him and he should just quit and go away is not only unhelpful, it's rude (and possibly frighteningly sycophantic).
Offering a shipping option =/= a business model
As the adventure path product line ages this may well become more of a norm and less of an anomaly.
Edit to address your edit: even if 100% of people on every monthly subscription chose a quarterly shipping option the cash flow impact would be 1 time, and short. 2 months. After which the new model would equalize. Also, preauthorization on credit cards would allow them to act as though that money was real so any actual cash flow impacts would likely be extremely minimal. Not that I know intimate details of Paizo's bank accounts.
Also, Someone offered the suggestion about attaching delayed shipping to a gift card scenario which completely eliminates all cash flow concerns.
@BigDTBone Thanks, you get what I'm trying to do.
I'm a competent consumer and I know I can get the Paizo products I want cheaper elsewhere (that has been true from day one). By choosing to spend my money at Paizo I am making a choice that values the approach Paizo takes in business. I prefer that Paizo captures more of the market value of their product because I want to support them making more of those products.
I'm happy to offer a little free market research and I do think it adds value for them when read in the context of their own privately held sales information and reports.
My post here is in the context of the change in Pathfinder Battles subscriptions which generated a LOT of discussion. Paizo's subscription strategies are not static, and the issue of shipping costs have come up more than once including in discussions where Paizo's staff take an active part.
@LazarX Maybe you know something about Paizo's cash flows that is not public knowledge. You seem to think my suggestion would do Paizo definite harm. I can't comment on that. But unless you have something concrete to back that up, I don't see what you are adding to the discussion. Paizo is somewhat unique for having this subscription model and uses it to generate consumer lock-in as well as cash-flow benefits. Few if any of the other gaming companies I buy from have the luxury that this affords Paizo.
I take strong issue with your (implied) assertion that the subscription model is just a cash flow thing. The prices on Paizo.com are set such that they compare best with other sellers WITH an AP discount (or other discount source). And so what if everyone wants to save on shipping for random subscriptions? Paizo can offer shipping services that are compatible with their costs and practices, and if none of my suggestions work, than... oh well.
They could also avoid cash flow issues by charging customers as they currently do when they make the PDF available. Then just ship quarterly.
I can't help myself, but I really, really, really, doubt that the Pen & Paper gaming industry is smaller than the "heyday" of D&D, at least in inflation adjusted dollar values. I'm trying to find it, but I saw at least one plot of shipments of rulebooks by edition, and the straight number of units sold by Pathfinder was the most of any edition, ever (yes, yes, distributor numbers, market segmentation...)
The gaming market is stronger (again in dollar terms) than ever. Dwarven Forge is almost certainly going to break $2 million on their Kickstarter today, breaking last year's record ~$1.9 million. For 3D painted terrain, the blingiest of Pen and Paper bling. How much of that would have sold in 1970? 1980? 1990? 2000?
We know for a fact that Pathfinder outsold 4E D&D (Lisa Stevens remarked on it personally). And you know who has a really good idea of just how strong the market is? Paizo. So if you work for them or have access to their data LazarX, inquiring minds want to know.
Certainly the market is more fragmented, and certainly Paizo doesn't have the product depth of Hasbro, and sure, they're not a Fortune 500 company. So therefor they can't afford more complicated shipping options? And given all that, shouldn't I, as a Paizo fan, want to help by providing free market research?
Let me back up to the early exchanges. Why do I feel that I represent a significant portion of Paizo's custom?
Because I know what all my friends/acquaintances spend their gaming money on (something like 30-40 gamers if I'm being conservative about it). And the fact is this: most gaming groups have a big spender who spends most of the money. This has been my consistent experience for 20 years of gaming in three states of the union. And I a big spender. My per annum expenditure overall is in the thousands and has been consistently for years. I would suspect that people like me make up a double-digits portion of Paizo's sales, if not a majority. More importantly for Paizo I've consistently spent a lot of that money on Pen and Paper D&D style gaming. I'd say that's a reasonable argument.
Cheers!
They could also avoid cash flow issues by charging customers as they currently do when they make the PDF available. Then just ship quarterly.
Awesome. I'm all for it.
They could also avoid cash flow issues by charging customers as they currently do when they make the PDF available. Then just ship quarterly.Awesome. I'm all for it.
As I understand things, they're not allowed to do this - they can't charge your card for a product they're not going to ship for three months (even though some places do).
You guys make some good points. I would be curious to know if Paizo has a sense how much of their market looks like me. People who spend a reasonable amount and have been long-time subscribers but are getting a little tired of how much they are spending (particularly in shipping). My bookshelf is filling up with APs and I feel less and less interested in new volumes.
I'm feeling product-line fatigue and trying to discuss a business solution that keeps Paizo's subscriber base as strong as possible taking customers like me into consideration. With the current age of the Pathfinder product-lines I suspect I'm not alone in feeling this way.
I'm sure you're not alone - as the product line ages there will always be people dropping off the end as their enthusiasm wanes. From a global business perspective I dont think that's really an issue provided there's a bunch of fresh-faced newcomers to take up the slack.
I've definitely experienced that product fatigue you mention - no doubt Paizo's books are better now than when they started, nonetheless nothing captures the feel I had reading through Shackled City, RotRL, Guide to Korvosa and my other introductions to Paizo. Like you, I've also found myself adding up my annual shipping bill with a somewhat glum feeling.
Despite that issue, I think Paizo would be very wary of tinkering with the heart of their successful business. Launching their subscriptions was a big risk given the cost of each book plus the shipping. It's paid off for them handsomely and still seems to be going strong - I expect it's inevitable that changing something that works so well is only going to happen if they think there's a really big payoff.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's why they do it when they release the PDF. Buy the book get free PDF, buy the PDF get a free book. Priced the same.
There are business liability issues with storing paid-for product for two to three months.
Also, I suspect that Paizo would see reduced sales overall. I know I (frequently) throw "just one (more) thing" into my shipments, the e-tailer equivalent of an impulse purchase. I'd do that a lot less if I knew I had to wait nearly three months for my goodies.
That's all with me agreeing it'd be an interesting option and that I might even use it. I'm Canadian and shipping isn't insignificant. Still, interesting idea or not, I do see some flaws in delayed/aggregate shipping.
Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Much of this thread has already covered most of reasons we don't delay shipping, (cash flow, storage, customer service reasons, etc) One thing that I did not see however and want to point out, is how it affects the monthly shipping.
Right now, most orders being shipped during the subscription shipping time contain the same or a combination of the same 1-10 products. If you've subscribed with us for a while, you've seen how having more products and possible combinations () can really throw a monkey wrench in how quickly the warehouse can process orders. Allowing customers en masse to hold, delay and ship multiple months' worth of books together means our ability to get orders out the door, especially much of our bulk processing, would be severely crippled, even during "light" months.
So, to sum up, we are very, very conscious of how shipping costs impact customers decisions to subscribe with us, (especially in comparison with companies that use low or free shipping as a loss leader) and we do our best to balance this with the logistics of direct to customer subscriptions.
...I think Paizo would be very wary of tinkering with the heart of their successful business.... I expect it's inevitable that changing something that works so well is only going to happen if they think there's a really big payoff.
This.
Thanks for the reply Sara. That was a good illustration of the logistical challenge.
Hey, at least you got more minions out of it!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
That's why they do it when they release the PDF. Buy the book get free PDF, buy the PDF get a free book. Priced the same.
This would be my preferred option, and sidesteps any credit-card malarky. As a European subscriber this would be very cost-effective for me. I pay for my subscription, get the pdf on release day and a pile of books when all six are out.
EDIT: Just read Sara's reply - I can imagine all those piles of subscriptions would be a logistical nightmare. I got a bit overexcited at Mr. TBone's suggestion :-)