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I am interested to hear how people rule the use of extradimensional containers and spell components pouches during a underwater adventure.
To explain the problems I see:
Extradimensional containers: you open a bag of holding/handy haversack underwater to draw something. The container fill with water and burst as it has been overloaded? (the maximum volume of water that he can contain is way more than the maximum weight allowance for the item.)
Nothing in the rules I see say that if the container is open only what you want will enter it. Au contraire, if you open it the air within change, allowing a creature to survive for 10 minutes after the bag is closed again.
Even if the bag isn't destroyed by being overloaded (we don't include the air in it in the weight carried, so we can say that the water don't count, too. A bit of a stretch, but maybe acceptable if the bag is immersed in water) it will fill with water and that will damage/destroy a lot of the stuff in the bag.
Waterlogged arrows don't work very well.
Spell component pouch: even if you get a waterproof pouch, you need to open it to manipulate the material components in it to cast your spells. That mean that it will fill with water and your components will become waterlogged and probably useless. Unless each set of components for each spell is conserved in a separate, waterproof container, I don't see a way to do that.
But lugging around teens of waterproofed small container will make our component pouches unmanageable.
For the record, I assume that our character will store the spell components for each spell is separate packets for ease of use, but that those packets are made with parchment or oiled paper. I.e. the ball shaped red packs are those used for the fireball components, the yellow square packet contain the gold dust for several spells, and so on.
[Maybe I should take a skill in Craft (origami). So I can make horse shaped container for the components for the Phantom steed spell and a dove shaped container for the Fly spell :-P]
I am interested to hear how people rule the use of extradimensional containers and spell components pouches during a underwater adventure.
To explain the problems I see:
Extradimensional containers: you open a bag of holding/handy haversack underwater to draw something. The container fill with water and burst as it has been overloaded? (the maximum volume of water that he can contain is way more than the maximum weight allowance for the item.)
Overloading the space does not cause the burst. It is piercing the space from inside or out (at least RAW. Similarly, RAW does not list an effect of what happens if the bag is overloaded weight-wise. There are a few items that specifically remain dry/water-free/etc... (I'm specifically thinking of a Captain's Chest, or something of similar name from the Skull and Shackels adventure path).
Nothing in the rules I see say that if the container is open only what you want will enter it. Au contraire, if you open it the air within change, allowing a creature to survive for 10 minutes after the bag is closed again.
True enough. There is also nothing that says items you don't want get in, though. The portable hole implies otherwise (the only air that gets in or out is while it is opened), and also implies that a handy haversack or bag of holding might leak and retain integrity (food for your GMly deviousness)
Even if the bag isn't destroyed by being overloaded (we don't include the air in it in the weight carried, so we can say that the water don't count, too. A bit of a stretch, but maybe acceptable if the bag is immersed in water) it will fill with water and that will damage/destroy a lot of the stuff in the bag.
Waterlogged arrows don't work very well.
Very true. My general ruling is that the limit is an either/or thing. Either you hit the volume limit, or the weight limit. I have had characters use a bag of holding as a watersack to cross a desert before. Good fun that. Wish I'd have thought of the leak thing before-hand. Maybe take it on a case for case basis. On that note, arrows don't work so well underwater, period (cumulative -2 penalty for every 5 feet of water traveled through to hit as well as range penalties, and thrown weapons ineffective completely)
Spell component pouch: even if you get a waterproof pouch, you need to open it to manipulate the material components in it to cast your spells. That mean that it will fill with water and your components will become waterlogged and probably useless. Unless each set of components for each spell is conserved in a separate, waterproof container, I don't see a way to do that.
But lugging around teens of waterproofed small container will make our component pouches unmanageable.
For the record, I assume that our character will store the spell components for each spell is separate packets for ease of use, but that those packets are made with parchment or oiled paper. I.e. the ball shaped red packs are those used for the fireball components, the yellow square packet contain the gold dust for several spells, and so on.
[Maybe I should take a skill in Craft (origami). So I can make horse shaped container for the components for the Phantom steed spell and a dove shaped...
Probably could have edited that (and most of the prior better). I didn't. Okay, statements of obvious aside, the spell component pouch is a sort of convenience. Rather than keep track of micro-transactions within the game for three coppers of salt or what hav you, you pay a one time fee for a pouch and can cast low cost spells without having to keep track of pinches of dirt, or brass buttons, or glass rods and a piece of fur or whatever. Yes, I realize the reusable components like those for lightning bolt aren't included. that being said, Either figure a charge for waterproofing your players' pouch, or let them know they'll need to come up with something. It's not so much that your player should think of it on their own as it is a friendly warning that 'Maybe that pouch doesn't keep their pile of sugar quite as un-dissolved as they might desire'... And before they need it in combat. Alternatively, let them know about the cloud of debris rising from their pouch as things dissolve the first time they step into the water. At this point they'll probably need a new pouch (similar to how they might get one stolen in a plot related incident and how there is no refill cost for components used (further aside, I guess caster types steal more of those little diner sugar packets and what not than a her of rogues in their downtime...) it is kind of like a politeness thing at low levels and a 'ignoring anything that costs less than a certain amount because it's pointless to quibble over a few gold now' at higher levels. In theory there is a point where it evens out to 'Okay, we're at ideal charge me for component pouches level', but in practice most players and GMs alike don't like dealing with that level of detail. Sort of how second ed D&D had lists of clothing items that got chopped down to 'Generic outfit set, workers, generic set explorer, monk, priest, etc...)
Aaaaaaand... I can't even summate briefly, so I quit now.
RAW cannot help but here are my suggestions.
Extradimensional container:
The easy way: The extradimensional container dont fill up with water if you open it. It is a magic item and the magic prevents everything except air and items from entering it.
The hard way: As soon as you open the container it fills with water until it is full. All items inside are exposured to the water and are damaged if they are not waterproof.
The very hard way: As soon as you open the container it fills with water until it is overloaded.
Time for a GM call.
Component pouches:
The easy way: Touching the component pouch is enough to use material inside as material component for a spell. Only spells that require a special task with the material (throw it at the enemy, create a circle with it, etc.) have a problem.
The hard way: Without magical help you have a real problem and no access to your component pouch.
Other ideas are
- special material components that can be used instead of the original ones that are waterproof (some kind of underwater version of a spell or component).
- Use feats (eschew material) or spells (blood money) that substitue materials
- You can put a hand in a pouch and seal it. so you have your materials at hand everytime but swiming etc. should be harder (silly solution)
- Special custom magic items that helps here (some kind of small bag of holding etc.)
Most ideas need the assistence of your GM. Due to the fact that everyone on the table should have fun i expect some ideas from the GM if he plans a underwater campaign/adventure.
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Overloading the space does not cause the burst. It is piercing the space from inside or out (at least RAW. Similarly, RAW does not list an effect of what happens if the bag is overloaded weight-wise. There are a few items that specifically remain dry/water-free/etc... (I'm specifically thinking of a Captain's Chest, or something of similar name from the Skull and Shackels adventure path).I am interested to hear how people rule the use of extradimensional containers and spell components pouches during a underwater adventure.
To explain the problems I see:
Extradimensional containers: you open a bag of holding/handy haversack underwater to draw something. The container fill with water and burst as it has been overloaded? (the maximum volume of water that he can contain is way more than the maximum weight allowance for the item.)
If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
It rupture if overloaded.
The handy haversack is composed by several bag of holding, so it will follow the same rules.I will look the Captain's Chest, thank for the head up.
Nothing in the rules I see say that if the container is open only what you want will enter it. Au contraire, if you open it the air within change, allowing a creature to survive for 10 minutes after the bag is closed again.True enough. There is also nothing that says items you don't want get in, though. The portable hole implies otherwise (the only air that gets in or out is while it is opened), and also implies that a handy haversack or bag of holding might leak and retain integrity (food for your GMly deviousness)
When the container is closed there is no problem. Nothing can enter it AFAIK. I think only some kind of planar travel will allow access to a closed extradimensional space.
Very true. My general ruling is that the limit is an either/or thing. Either you hit the volume limit, or the weight limit. I have had characters use a bag of holding as a watersack to cross a desert before. Good fun that. Wish I'd have thought of the leak thing before-hand. Maybe take it on a case for case basis. On that note, arrows don't work so well underwater, period (cumulative -2 penalty for every 5 feet of water traveled through to hit as well as range penalties, and thrown weapons ineffective completely)Even if the bag isn't destroyed by being overloaded (we don't include the air in it in the weight carried, so we can say that the water don't count, too. A bit of a stretch, but maybe acceptable if the bag is immersed in water) it will fill with water and that will damage/destroy a lot of the stuff in the bag.
Waterlogged arrows don't work very well.
There is a underwater crossbow with a reduced penalty, but I suppose it use special arrows.
On the other hand a specialized archer would still be fearsome even if his bow range is greatly reduced. Most encounters are at less than 30' and a -6 to hit will be a challenge, but it can be overcome unless the arrows are warped and don't work at all.|
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Spell component pouch: even if you get a waterproof pouch, you need to open it to manipulate the material components in it to cast your spells. That mean that it will fill with water and your components will become waterlogged and probably useless. Unless each set of components for each spell is conserved in a separate, waterproof container, I don't see a way to do that.But lugging around teens of waterproofed small container will make our component pouches unmanageable.
For the record, I assume that our character will store the spell components for each spell is separate packets for ease of use, but that those packets are made with parchment or oiled paper. I.e. the ball shaped red packs are those used for the fireball components, the yellow square packet contain the gold dust for several spells, and so on.
[Maybe I should take a skill in Craft (origami). So I can make horse shaped container for the components for the Phantom steed spell and a dove shaped...Probably could have edited that (and most of the prior better). I didn't. Okay, statements of obvious aside, the spell component pouch is a sort of convenience. Rather than keep track of micro-transactions within the game for three coppers of salt or what hav you, you pay a one time fee for a pouch and can cast low cost spells without having to keep track of pinches of dirt, or brass buttons, or glass rods and a piece of fur or whatever. Yes, I realize the reusable components like those for lightning bolt aren't included. that being said, Either figure a charge for waterproofing your players' pouch, or let them know they'll need to come up with something. It's not so much that your player should think of it on their own as it is a friendly warning that 'Maybe that pouch doesn't keep their pile of sugar quite as un-dissolved as they might desire'... And before they need it in combat. Alternatively, let them know about the cloud of debris rising from their pouch as things dissolve the first time they step into the water. At this point they'll probably need a new pouch (similar to how they might get one stolen in a plot related incident and how there is no refill cost for components used (further aside, I guess caster types steal more of those little diner sugar packets and what not than a her of rogues in their downtime...) it is kind of like a politeness thing at low levels and a 'ignoring anything that costs less than a certain amount because it's pointless to quibble over a few gold now' at higher levels. In theory there is a point where it evens out to 'Okay, we're at ideal charge me for component pouches level', but in practice most players and GMs alike don't like dealing with that level of detail. Sort of how second ed D&D had lists of clothing items that got chopped down to 'Generic outfit set, workers, generic set explorer, monk, priest, etc...)
Aaaaaaand... I can't even summate briefly, so I quit now.
Edit: I am the last one that can comment about large posts, as you can see. ;-)
For the cost of refilling my spell component pouch (In this instance I am the player) I pay the cost of living and consider that spending that money every month will refill my negligible cost components and a small number of standard ammunitions for bows, slings and so on.
The average lifestyle say:
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Several standard items can be scavenger with ease (living spiders, feathers, ecc.).
For more costly items of strange items without a price (as an example a piece charda flesh for a Monstrous physique spell) I suppose they are found during the adventures (a good mage will always take a piece of the strange creatures the party kill) or they can be brought in the different magic shops (reliability and cost will wary with the quality of the shop. Trying to transform in a chupachabra and discovering that the shopkeeper has sold you some lizard hide would be nasty!).
- * -
As both a GM and a player I feel that we should show some respect for the limits imposed by logic to our abilities. Especially magic users that can bend reality with their abilities.
Hand waving the spell component pouch and the effect of water for a low level character can be appropriate (or he can easily have a few waterproof containers), doing the same for a mid to high level spellcaster is being too generous.
I would inform the players of the risk involved in a prolonged full immersion in water (I assume that the closed component pouch will protect its content a few rounds and that it is possible to buy a waterproofed version of the pouch) and see what they want to do.
Currently I am considering taking the eschew material feat. Or even better the False Focus feat (not to fake casting divine spells, but to ask my divinity help when casting my arcane spells).
An alternate solution would be to memorize only spells that don't have components or whose components don't have problems if waterlogged.
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Other ideas are
- special material components that can be used instead of the original ones that are waterproof (some kind of underwater version of a spell or component).
- Use feats (eschew material) or spells (blood money) that substitue materials
- You can put a hand in a pouch and seal it. so you have your materials at hand everytime but swiming etc. should be harder (silly solution)
- Special custom magic items that helps here (some kind of small bag of holding etc.)
- The special material idea is interesting.
- For eschew material see above, I hate blood money unless it is used by a Thassalonian wizard with specialized in the Gluttony school and I will never take it.- Hand in the pouch. Actually I think that a lot of group hand wave the spell components, saying that if you have them on your body you are ok and don't need to touch them. AFAIK the "have components in hand to cast a spell" part has been removed from the grappling rules, so apparently Paizo is fairly lenient about the "you need to manipulate the components" part of the rules.
- Custom magic items: the 1st and 2nd edition of AD&D had the belt of many pouches, with 8 small pockets that work like miniature bags of holding, each one allowing access to 8 extradimensional spaces (for a total of 64 small spaces), each one with a volume of 1 cubic feet and a carrying capacity of a pound. Updating it to Pathfinder accessing the pouches would work like retrieving a item from a handy haversack: a move action that don't provoke.
Perfect to store the components of up to 64 different spells and/or potions and other small items.
Sadly it is copyrighted by WoTC so Paizo can't duplicate it (a bit silly, as it is a logical consequence of the existence of extradimensional spaces), but for an home game it is a perfectly logical item.
Take a look at 'Robe of components'
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Take a look at 'Robe of components'
5.000 gp and a Body slot, better than spending a feat, even if it he feat is thematic in the campaign (we have received the blessing of Desna so reskinning the false focus feat in a divine focus feat that work only with a holy symbol of Desna is acceptable).
Now the problem is finding the 3 days to make it at double speed or enough money to buy it if available.
The best option would be to rack down the PC that betrayed us and tried to switch side during a battle and that had that item. Mixing business with pleasure :-)
For the extra dimensional containers: Introduce a new version that costs 5-10% more, requires air bubble in addition to what spell(s) they need to create them and have them have a permanent air bubble inside that doesn't get out and keeps everything dry.
Or just handwave it.
Umbranus mentioned the Air Bubble spell.
I think this spell is perfect for such an occasion. Even firearms work within such a bubble and it can be cast on any object touched.