So why exactly can't I replay a normal scenario for no credit if there's already enough players for a legal table? I was just forced out of the only game at my event because of that rule and I want to know the reasoning.
Has there been a problem with that in the past?
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You are free to replay a scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time. A player replaying a scenario in order for the table to reach the minium table size should (in this instance only) be given a Chronicle for the scenario, though marked to earn 0 Gold, 0 Fame, 0 XP; it does not allow the character to make a ‘Day Job’ check, no boons, item access, or anything else appearing on the Chronicle might provide for having played the scenario.
Emphasis mine. I would say that pushing a player away isn't what this rule is intending. The excess player (beyond fourth) should be able to play at the table after announcing that they've played the scenario before, they just wouldn't get a chronicle sheet that could be applied to a character.
Hmmm is that really the right mindset though? Pushing someone that wants to add to a community game just because they have played it before. Shouldn't a GM for a society game want to include as many people into the experience as they can without ruining the fun for the other folks?
We should have players playing if there's not enough folks to make a second table.
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If you have already played a scenario and wish to replay it for any reason, you must inform the GM that you have already played the scenario. Some GMs may not be comfortable running an adventure for players who have foreknowledge of what is to come. If your GM is not comfortable with you replaying a scenario, you must find another GM who is. GMs have the right to deny players the opportunity to replay a scenario for any reason, but all GMs are encouraged to be as flexible as possible when replay is the only option that allows them to seat the minimum legal number of players at a game table.
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The issue is that MOST players (unintentionally or not) do end up at least slightly spoiling/taking advantage of what they know. This can be frustrating for the other players for a variety of reasons.
The following are anecdotal accounts of games I played in or GMed but are representative of the problems with replayers.
1) A particular 7-11 scenario where the optional encounter is notorious as a "one (and only one) person dies" encounter. Guess who the one player standing where she couldn't possibly be affected was? The replayer.
2) A scenario laden with traps. Guess who ran confidently forward setting them all off? The replayer, knowing they were illusionary and had no lasting effects. (And stopping before triggering the next real encounter.)
3) A player replays using the pregen gunslinger because she "hadn't played one before." Proceeded to shoot EVERYTHING, including the things that resulted in the rest of us getting a negative boon.
4) A puzzle is dragging on. The people at the table who haven't played it before are struggling for about half an hour, making slow progress. Finally the 7 Int fighter replaying blurts out the key logical jump the other players haven't yet discovered, probably cutting 30 minutes off the puzzle.
I'm not saying all replayers are bad. It's just that it takes a LOT of work to replay without unintentionally spoiling something. (#1 is the worst. I can't tell you how many times I've seen replayers or people who have GMed the scenario before position their vulnerable characters in exactly the right place to make sure one of the other players gets attacked instead. Very frustrating to me when I realize that the only reason the guy who has been rushing forward the whole scenario stopped to buff this time was because he didn't want to be the one to trigger the nasty surprise. But at the same time...if he knows about it there's a possibility of getting into a Type 2 situation - triggering it so others won't have to.)
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The issue is that MOST players (unintentionally or not) do end up at least slightly spoiling/taking advantage of what they know. This can be frustrating for the other players for a variety of reasons.
The following are anecdotal accounts of games I played in or GMed but are representative of the problems with replayers.
1) A particular 7-11 scenario where the optional encounter is notorious as a "one (and only one) person dies" encounter. Guess who the one player standing where she couldn't possibly be affected was? The replayer.
2) A scenario laden with traps. Guess who ran confidently forward setting them all off? The replayer, knowing they were illusionary and had no lasting effects. (And stopping before triggering the next real encounter.)
3) A player replays using the pregen gunslinger because she "hadn't played one before." Proceeded to shoot EVERYTHING, including the things that resulted in the rest of us getting a negative boon.
4) A puzzle is dragging on. The people at the table who haven't played it before are struggling for about half an hour, making slow progress. Finally the 7 Int fighter replaying blurts out the key logical jump the other players haven't yet discovered, probably cutting 30 minutes off the puzzle.
I'm not saying all replayers are bad. It's just that it takes a LOT of work to replay without unintentionally spoiling something. (#1 is the worst. I can't tell you how many times I've seen replayers or people who have GMed the scenario before position their vulnerable characters in exactly the right place to make sure one of the other players gets attacked instead. Very frustrating to me when I realize that the only reason the guy who has been rushing forward the whole scenario stopped to buff this time was because he didn't want to be the one to trigger the nasty surprise. But at the same time...if he knows about it there's a possibility of getting into a Type 2 situation - triggering it so others won't have to.)
I'm reading number 4 and I can't get past the question what is wrong with this. The way you describe the situation, the players are not having fun so the replayers helps out with a key piece that was hanging up the other players. When I read "A puzzle is dragging on" I do not imagine a fun situation, I imagine frustrated unhappy players who are getting bored.
It is hard to avoid questionable activities when replaying. Sometimes what is perfectly normal for your character is the "right thing to do." On the other hand, it sounds like you have encountered some serious jerks. Number 3 leaves me especially annoyed, though 1 and 2 are also bad.
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Maybe its just the people around here that try and replay. There's only been 1 time, for me, that has been fun for the table, and the player still used foreknowledge to help his buddies that he was replaying with.
Even the GM playing after running a scenario is troublesome. Frankly there are very few GMs around here that have the ability to separate player and character knowledge and still have a scenario be fun for everyone.
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We minimize this problem by doing advance sign-ups. This way, if someone can't play that scenario, the GM has time to prep a different one, or we can recruit folks for a second table. Replaying is something that we try to avoid, because it often causes problems,. Unfortunate that you had to sit out a game, though... I suggest chatting with the GM or Venture-Officer in your area to see if there's a way to reduce the frequency of this.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
OK, it is not a rule that you can't replay a PFS adventure for no credit unless you are the third (not fourth) player. It is up to the GM.
When you are replaying as the third (not fourth) player to meet the minimum table size of three players (and one pregen), you have to take a zero'd out chronicle sheet to track your costs and any conditions incurred. But that is the only case when the rules say you have to take a Chronicle sheet for replaying for no credit.
The text in the PFS Guide that Illeist quotes, specifically:
If you have already played a scenario and wish to replay it for any reason, ...
(bolding mine) makes it clear that you can replay "for any reason" as long as the GM is okay with you playing at their table.
I'm not sure why the text mentioned earlier about taking a chronicle sheet only applies to the third player, but I suspect the author of that text mistakenly believed that replay was only allowed in order to meet the table minimum (of three players). I'm guessing that taking a zero'd chronicle sheet was meant to apply to anyone replaying a PFS adventure, but that is not what the text indicates in the PFS Guide dated 8/14/2013.
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I'm not sure why the text mentioned earlier about taking a chronicle sheet only applies to the third player, but I suspect the author of that text mistakenly believed that replay was only allowed in order to meet the table minimum (of three players). I'm guessing that taking a zero'd chronicle sheet was meant to apply to anyone replaying a PFS adventure, but that is not what the text indicates in the PFS Guide dated 8/14/2013.
I suspect you can only replay to make a legal table, and the author of this text mistakenly believed otherwise.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I suspect you can only replay to make a legal table, and the author of this text mistakenly believed otherwise.I'm not sure why the text mentioned earlier about taking a chronicle sheet only applies to the third player, but I suspect the author of that text mistakenly believed that replay was only allowed in order to meet the table minimum (of three players). I'm guessing that taking a zero'd chronicle sheet was meant to apply to anyone replaying a PFS adventure, but that is not what the text indicates in the PFS Guide dated 8/14/2013.
Check the PFS Guide. The text quoted by Illeist was in the guide before version 5.0. The text that requires you to take a chronicle sheet if you are replaying to meet the minimum table size was added in version 5.0.
The earlier text was not removed. And it immediately follows the new text.
Without Mike or John to speak with in person when you are running a game, all we have are their written words. There is no text in the PFS FAQ or Additional Resources that covers replay rules. So we only have the PFS Guide:
• You cannot receive more than 1 player Chronicle and 1 GM
Chronicle for the same scenario, regardless of how many
times you GM or play the scenario. You are free to replay a
scenario in order to meet the minimum legal table size (see
Chapter 7), but once you have reached that limit, you do not
earn any additional rewards beyond having a good time. A
player replaying a scenario in order for the table to reach
the minium table size should (in this instance only) be
given a Chronicle for the scenario, though marked to earn
0 Gold, 0 Fame, 0 XP; it does not allow the character to
make a ‘Day Job’ check, no boons, item access, or anything
else appearing on the Chronicle might provide for having
played the scenario. This Chronicle only serves as a
placeholder to indicate the character participated in the
adventure, and gives a place for consumables, purchases,
and conditions to be tracked from playing through the
adventure. This is the only exception to not having two of
the same Chronicle assigned to one character.
• If you have already played a scenario and wish to replay
it for any reason, you must inform the GM that you
have already played the scenario. Some GMs may not
be comfortable running an adventure for players who
have foreknowledge of what is to come. If your GM is not
comfortable with you replaying a scenario, you must find
another GM who is. GMs have the right to deny players
the opportunity to replay a scenario for any reason, but
all GMs are encouraged to be as flexible as possible when
replay is the only option that allows them to seat the
minimum legal number of players at a game table.
The minimum table size for a Pathfinder Society
Organized Play session to be considered legal is four
PCs. Table size is capped at six PCs. In cases in which
you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table
of three players, and play an official level-appropriate
pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs.
Note the minimum size is four PCs, not players. You need three players (plus a pregen) for a legal table.
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Stuff
I've read the guide. I checked it again as per your instruction and didn't discover anything I didn't already know.
There is an inconsistency created by text added in 5.0.
You believe the newer text contains a rules misunderstanding.
I believe the older text contains a rules misunderstanding.
I looked at the blog about adding GM * replay for guidance, sometimes it mentions the stars are about replaying for credit but other times it just talks about replaying, so no help there.
There is an inconsistency in the rules and I think either way is a reasonable conclusion
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I'm reading number 4 and I can't get past the question what is wrong with this. The way you describe the situation, the players are not having fun so the replayers helps out with a key piece that was hanging up the other players. When I read "A puzzle is dragging on" I do not imagine a fun situation, I imagine frustrated unhappy players who are getting bored....cut
4) A puzzle is dragging on. The people at the table who haven't played it before are struggling for about half an hour, making slow progress. Finally the 7 Int fighter replaying blurts out the key logical jump the other players haven't yet discovered, probably cutting 30 minutes off the puzzle.
cut...
I probably should have qualified the phrase "dragging on." I meant that it was dragging for the player who was replaying and knew the solution. It was one of those puzzles where an incorrect solution reveals an additional bit of information to get the group closer to the correct one. In this particular case (I was the GM) solving the puzzle without further failures also resulted in not losing a possible prestige point.
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StuffI've read the guide. I checked it again as per your instruction and didn't discover anything I didn't already know.
There is an inconsistency created by text added in 5.0.
You believe the newer text contains a rules misunderstanding.
I believe the older text contains a rules misunderstanding.I looked at the blog about adding GM * replay for guidance, sometimes it mentions the stars are about replaying for credit but other times it just talks about replaying, so no help there.
There is an inconsistency in the rules and I think either way is a reasonable conclusion
Actually, that section of the rules sounds like it was written by someone who had fallen behind the curve on the replay rules. At one point, the replay rules were, indeed, that you could only replay to make a legal table.
Oh, and in addition, either Mike or John clarified that, if you used one of your own PCs, you got a zeroed Chronicle to track any expenditures your PC made during the game, whether it was gold for bribes, wand charges for healing or other purposes, or a full raise dead.