Necromancer looking for advice : fast zombies vs bloody skeletons

[Faskill]

Hello everyone,

I've recently started playing a 8th level necromancer in a mythic campaign and I am looking for advice as to what is better when considering animating fast zombies or bloody skeletons.
I'm playing a wizard so bloody skeletons are nice because I can't channel energy so they can heal themselves after combat. Also they cannot die which is a very good thing, needless to say.
On the other hand if I read it correctly fast zombies gain increased movespeed, they keep their ability to fly (albeit at reduced maneuvrability) and they get two additional slam attacks in their attack routine.

So what's your take on this? For example I want to animate a manticore but I don't know which variant to use.

[Apraham Lincoln]

Not mine but a useful resource

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kvBvq2DEHjRWFhSWc1ZzAzaDg/edit

[Faskill]

Thank you ;)
I've already read this guide but the reasoning lacks explanation in my opinion. It advices to create only bloody skeletons with creatures with less than 20 HD but I can't figure out why

[Movin]

http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/skeleton.html wrote:

Hit Dice: A skeleton drops any HD gained from class levels and changes racial HD to d8s. Creatures without racial HD are treated as if they have 1 racial HD. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can't be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. A skeleton uses its Cha modifier (instead of its Con modifier) to determine bonus hit points.

If you know you won't need the crappy flight? go for a bloody skeleton and enjoy.

Flight is nice but a L8+mythic campaign means most everyone in the group ought to have a solution for it by now. If not then I suppose Fast zombie is a good choice but it really only becomes useful with huge or larger creatures capable of carrying the entire party at the same time. Then it becomes necromantic massed windwalk/overland flight.

[Faskill]

What I don't understand is that, to me, fast zombies are more combat efficient than bloody skeletons even at early levels

[tonyz]

Yes, but they can get killed much faster -- the deathless quality is what makes bloody skeletons impressive. (Fast healing seldom matters in actual combat, which inflicts damage too fast for it to really recover lots of hit points.) So if your opponents kill fast skeletons, and they will even if you ladle protective spells over them, then you're without them until you can create more.

[far_wanderer]

Speaking from experience with my own necromancer, you'll want to use both options. You need to consider in each case what you want your undead minion to do, and what the base creature is.

Details are under the spoiler::

Bloody skeletons have a huge lead on defense. They have DR, Fast Healing, deathless, and 1 more hit point per HD and +2 to Fort saves thanks to their Charisma (it's only one HP per level over zombies because zombies get Toughness). The only defensive ability fast zombies have is one more point of natural armor at large and greater size.

Offensive power is about even depending on the creature. A fast zombie always gains two slam attacks, while a bloody skeleton gets one claw attack per hand, which will usually be two. Fast zombies have +2 Str and the die type of their attack is one higher, so they will win out a bit unless you are dealing with something with more than two hands.

Fast zombies are just straight up better at movement. They retain their fly speed and add 10 feet to their land speed. Remember though that maneuverability drops to clumsy and they have no skill ranks, so their flight isn't as useful as you might think.

Zombies gain significant bonus HD as their size increases. This is a very important bonus, but make sure it doesn't bump the creature outside of the HD limit you can create

Skeletons get improved initiative, but it's only a +3 bonus over fast zombies due to the +2 Dex on the zombies.

So in conclusion, favor bloody skeletons by default, but consider fast zombie if any of the following are true:
-The base creature lacks hands/already has claw attacks
-The base creature has a non-magical fly speed that you want to retain
-The base creature is particularly large
-You want to prioritize offense

[Faskill]

Thank you for your very complete answer.
In the case of a manticore, it is normal for me not to know what option to choose I guess ^^

[Rynjin]

Fast Zombies are hands down the superior option for big creatures you actually want to FIGHT things. They can deal a solid amount of damage and are fairly beefy themselves.

Bloody Skeletons are nigh unkillable (bar Channeling), true, but don't pack as much of a wallop.

If you want a wall of renewable cannon fodder, go for the Bloody Skeletons. Anything with only a few HD is better off that way too.

But if you kill like a Gorgimera or Dragon or summat...well two additional attacks is nothing to sneeze at.