I'm trying to prove to to a tablemate that this build is actually a decent build. But I've never actually built anything like this. I've never even used vital strike before. So I need ideas on how to maximize potential. So far I've got gravity bow in a wand and vital strike, point-blank, precise shot, weapon focus, deadly aim, and vanishing trick and assassinate on my list of things to use. What else improves this build? Obviously increasing size helps, but how to do it without someone else to cast enlarge Person on you? What about increasing damage from sneak attack? Static damage? Ways to better the DC on assassinate?
lol, this build actually looks like a lot of fun.
IMO, why not go firearms? Muskets do d12s of damage. EWP-Musket, Rapid Reload and Paper Catridges and you can reload as a move action, at a cost of only 2 feats. Alternatively, 3 level dip into Musket Master and never have reload problems, naturally picking up Deeds and Prof in musket along the way. Tempting as that is, I'd suggest the first option as you will be able to maintain sneak attack progression.
Vital Striking you're looking at multiple d12s+sneak attack, and assuming you're in 30 ft and Vanishing, you're targeting their touch AC, flat-footed. So basically anything-but-a-1 is going to hit forever. That means you don't need weapon focus, for sure. Amateur Gunslinger would be good to pick up. Most likely you can hold out on both Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot if you're feat starved, you're going to be hitting a lot anyway.
At higher levels add Devestating strike, naturally. Enlarge person won't do a thing for you because as soon as any projectile (does not matter bow or gun) leaves its device, it shrinks and becomes a standard size projectile. True story.
Sniper Goggles will be a must, of course.
I'm curious what exactly are you trying to prove is viable; are there particular elements here and the rest is just the idea you had so far, or are you set on this whole package of Ranged Ninja Vital Striker?
I do like the firearm idea awp mentioned, but if you're going to dip Gunslinger it's pretty much up to 5 for Dex to Damage or one level dip in Mysterious Stranger, which could have some nice synergy for you... if you're under Greater Invisibility hitting touch you could afford to have less Dex and perhaps pump Cha for more Grit, Ki points, and Focused Aim damage.
Ibsecond the idea of mysterious stranger dip. Since you dont aim to full-attack, misfire isnt that big of a deal, and without WF et cetera youre not married to your gun and caneasily care backup weapons. I would still go for precise shot though, because while hitting flatfooted touch is easy, hitting it at a -8 penalty at low levels can make it vquite hard for a med BAB class.
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If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.
If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.
I just fell in love with you.
My mind was just blown... I've always thought this was a melee only ability...
Enlarge person won't do a thing for you because as soon as any projectile (does not matter bow or gun) leaves its device, it shrinks and becomes a standard size projectile. True story.
Well...
You can always have some large size ammo. Drop it. Enlarge. Pick it up and use it on your now large weapon. And, the ammo was always Large, so it doesn't shrink.
Would be devastating in conjunction with many of the options found in this thread. Like, Double Hackbut, Large sized, Vital Striking... good lord.
I think that is what, 12d6?
OK. I love the musket cannon idea, but with a longbow and gravity bow I am already at 2D6 base damage. If I enlarge person first and have large ammo with me, gravity bow turns that into what? 2D8 base?
The idea is to prove that a vital strike build at range is actually a decent concept and can be devestating compared to any other build in a fight if focused on.
2d6 goes to 3d6.
But, a ninja has medium BAB. Enlarge gives you a -2 to hit. Soft cover gives -4. Shooting io melee gives -4. Hitting with a long bow under those circumstances will be harsh, even with invisibility.
A musket or hackbut is.much easier to hit with, and doesnt even force you to cast spells or enlarge. And lets face it, if you need to spend a round enlarging and then a move to pick up ammo, that means you -have- to precombat buff.
Only problem I see with this build is as a Ninja you can't get vital strike until level 9, or level 8 if you take it as a combat trick. Best weapon in my opinion is the bow, by the time you get vital strike you should also be able to ignore all but total cover and concealment. Touch attacks are nice, but I don't think you have the feat support for it.
Yeah I agree with the above poster, its a nice idea to use a firearm, but ultimates is far easier to use a bow and it has much more utility in that it can be made bigger easier and I don't have to take a feat tax if I want to reload faster. Ammo is also much cheaper which allows more money to be put towards items that can't help damage output. Shooting into melee is a non issue here because precise shot is a thing.
Really what I'm looking for advice on is ways to increase damage output with a single vital strike and ways to increase the DC for assassinate. Either one of these nets me a one-shot-one-kill scenario, which is the intent.
You can always have some large size ammo. Drop it. Enlarge. Pick it up and use it on your now large weapon. And, the ammo was always Large, so it doesn't shrink.
That's what I do using a crossbow. I use a large size crossbow though. When I size up, it becomes Huge. So, with Gravity Bow and my supply of Huge bolts, I'm shooting Gargantuan bolts. The penalty to attack is not a big deal, because I'm at full BAB anyway. Try that with a musket.
This may sound odd but there is an alternate rule somewhere that substitutes fighter combat feats for full sneak attack. That combined with the Crossbowman Archetype sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
*Edit* Link to Variant Rules
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If you're going to Vital Strike, you could always look at delaying Weapon Focus and Deadly Aim and instead grab Exotic Weapon Prof. (Double Crossbow) and Rapid Reload. Maybe dip a level of Fighter for the BAB boost and an extra feat to spend on Crossbow Mastery. If you want to get solid single target damage, it helps to be packing a cannon. A firearm build would be solid as well, and I think there's a Rogue talent that can help with that.
On a side note- There's a difference between "viable" and "good". Vital Striking with a ranged weapon is almost always going to be an inferior option to taking a full attack with a ranged, the exception being if you use the death by massive rules and you're playing at a level where Clustered Shots is not yet available.
The Vital Striking ninja sniper is a lot more about that immense sense of satisfaction you get when you creep up on an enemy and get a surprise round that involves you throwing handfuls of dice at an unsuspecting opponent. If you think you're going to be able to prove that it's mathematically better... It's not. It's fun, and it works, but it's really pretty middle of the road, and you almost never want to do it with a bow or thrown weapon since you'll only be hurting yourself. You really want to be using a weapon that's difficult to reload anyways, like a firearm or crossbow.
Also note- Enlarge Person does nothing to improve this build. Projectiles return to normal size as soon as they leave your possession. Unless you're carrying around a weapon and ammunition that you cannot normally use on a donkey until the spell is cast, and then picking them up to fire, you can't synergize Enlarge Person and ranged combat. You'll find that's true of most size increasing spells.
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Also note- Enlarge Person does nothing to improve this build. Projectiles return to normal size as soon as they leave your possession. Unless you're carrying around a weapon and ammunition that you cannot normally use on a donkey until the spell is cast, and then picking them up to fire, you can't synergize Enlarge Person and ranged combat. You'll find that's true of most size increasing spells.
On the other hand, reduce person actually becomes a somewhat decent buff. +2 to Hit and AC due to the Dex buff and Size buff, and your damage stays the same.
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On the other hand, reduce person actually becomes a somewhat decent buff. +2 to Hit and AC due to the Dex buff and Size buff, and your damage stays the same.
Also note- Enlarge Person does nothing to improve this build. Projectiles return to normal size as soon as they leave your possession. Unless you're carrying around a weapon and ammunition that you cannot normally use on a donkey until the spell is cast, and then picking them up to fire, you can't synergize Enlarge Person and ranged combat. You'll find that's true of most size increasing spells.
True 'dat. Reduce Person is a great ranged buff, especially if you're using a firearm or crossbow where you're not concerned about your strength bonus anyways.
If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.
So, I am having a dumb moment (I haven't had my coffee), how does this work??? xD
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If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.So, I am having a dumb moment (I haven't had my coffee), how does this work??? xD
Activate the rod, and shoot. The big problem with the hackbut is that it will knock you prone if you don't have a carriage. The rod will cancel any movement from the recoil like the carriage, but allow you to be more mobile than having to to push around a two wheeled cart to shoot from.
If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.So, I am having a dumb moment (I haven't had my coffee), how does this work??? xD
The Double Hackbut does 2d12 damage, so it just might be worth using with Vital Strike. Still not as good as a conventional archer, but not too bad. Still gimmicky as hell, though.
If you're a Gunslinger and have a surfeit of feats, it could be worthwhile to use Vital Strike on the rounds that you set up, and full attack as normal afterward.
Anyways, the Double Hackbut has to be mounted on a carriage, which takes a full-round action to set up. Firing it unmounted comes with a -4 penalty and knocks you prone. However, if you could talk your GM into replacing the carriage with an Immovable Rod that would bring it down to a move action, and eliminate all that bulk.
If you're going with firearms, go with the Double Hackbut. Replace the carriage with an Immovable Rod and you've got a medieval anti-material rifle.So, I am having a dumb moment (I haven't had my coffee), how does this work??? xDThe Double Hackbut does 2d12 damage, so it just might be worth using with Vital Strike. Still not as good as a conventional archer, but not too bad. Still gimmicky as hell, though.
If you're a Gunslinger and have a surfeit of feats, it could be worthwhile to use Vital Strike on the rounds that you set up, and full attack as normal afterward.
Anyways, the Double Hackbut has to be mounted on a carriage, which takes a full-round action to set up. Firing it unmounted comes with a -4 penalty and knocks you prone. However, if you could talk your GM into replacing the carriage with an Immovable Rod that would bring it down to a move action, and eliminate all that bulk.
Ah ok lol. I am not very proficient in fire-arm stuff.