I am looking for people interested in collaborating on a world building project. The only parameters I have for the world at this time are 1: it is suitable for an E6 style campaign and 2: the only sentient races native to the world are from the core rulebook + other human related species (tieflings and asimars, etc)
I'm game! I love World Building.
In fact, if you want to see the way I think, here's my latest brainstorming:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qsgz?Trying-to-get-the-flavor-just-right
What about alternate traits from the Advanced Players Guide? I ask because sometimes the core races can get a bit samey.
Are there enemy races here? I always disliked the idea that a whole entire race could be completely against everyone else but if it's only core races that leaves out Orcs as PCs even though their half-kids can be them.
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No Orcs would still be around, I meant it more in the sense that there aren't the 100 different possible races from pathfinder all on this one world. I was thinking of going with all sentient races having a single progenitor race that split into the various "modern" races due to a combination of reasons including divine intervention and magical experimentation. Any sentient race found in bestiary 1 could potentially have a place somewhere, probably not all of them but definitely some.
I have no issues with alternate traits for core races, it allows diversity while not forcing more races into the setting. Some traits may end up being put into a sub races if we want to go that route.
I encourage people to ask questions about things they are unsure about or want more clarification on. Things won't be decided unless they are brought up.
No Orcs would still be around, I meant it more in the sense that there aren't the 100 different possible races from pathfinder all on this one world. I was thinking of going with all sentient races having a single progenitor race that split into the various "modern" races due to a combination of reasons including divine intervention and magical experimentation. Any sentient race found in bestiary 1 could potentially have a place somewhere, probably not all of them but definitely some.
I have no issues with alternate traits for core races, it allows diversity while not forcing more races into the setting. Some traits may end up being put into a sub races if we want to go that route.
I encourage people to ask questions about things they are unsure about or want more clarification on. Things won't be decided unless they are brought up.
Ah, okay. I'm game, then. I am also not a fan of hundreds of different races.
Well, if you wanted to use real life stuff, there were a couple of different varieties of the homo species running around at about the same time as humans (notably Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Floresiensis [aka 'hobbits']). The first two could and did interbreed with Humans, and all of them had a common ancestor with us.
If deities are involved, it's possible that there are different pantheons that created different parts of reality. They might have fought, but eventually made peace through intermarriage. After that, they could have created races - and those races could subsequently interbreed. There might be a limit to it so the lines aren't watered down forever (being deities, they could probably control things like that).
I'm not sure about things like aasimars, tieflings, oreads, ifrits, undines, and sylphs. In some ways, they share characteristics with various Sorcerer bloodlines. If you like elemental variants, though, I think they ought to be available to all the races unless there's a specific reason they developed differently. For instance, Dwarves could easily be an earth-variant of Humans with some traits from Oreads or similar.
Will there any brewed races or variants of races? I would guess no to the former, since it leads to the infinity+1 races, but the latter could be possible to separate the races here from their counterparts everywhere else.
Which races do you see as definitely being here out side the base 7 + Orcs? Which ones do you see as 'maybe' races, and which are not appearing?
Where do non-humanoid sentient beings (like centaurs and dragons) fit in - or don't they exist here?
Are there alignments or not?
Which classes are going to be here?
I am fine with there being multiple pantheons of gods, perhaps they have come to some level of agreement to not fight directly as the consequences are too drastic? Which leads to an important question of can deities die under the right conditions?
I would be okay with some of the demi-human "races" being broken down into traits accessible to certain or all core races. (Perhaps templates for asimars and tieflings?) More definition of how that would work is needed. I will need to not be on my phone to look at that in more detail.
With varient races I see it as a possibility, things like a clan of snow dwarves strikes me as a cool idea, it leaves a variety of starting options while keeping to total races down.
Alignment I find to be somewhat useful to help give people an idea of norms in that group.
The only classes I don't immediately think fit are summoners or gunslingers. The list of removed classes may be expanded as things develop.
okay, here's my .02 overview on how I build worlds:
first off, I like to think about 3 things (in no particular order):
what was the first society like? also, what do people think about the first society in the modern age? most settings have such a society: whether it's the ancients in stargate, or the atlanteans/therans in shadowrun, there's always a society that came first. Now, sometimes, that society is still around. In that case, that society can become a lightning rod for the setting, with everything being compared and contrasted to what that society does/is.
what niche do each pc race play in the world: also, I like to give each race a secret (even if it's secret from them), so for example, in a desolate PA world, elves might be descended from humans who rode out the apocalypse in vaults, and thus are prettier and live longer; Dwarves in the same world could be descended from humans who became nomadic vehicle gypsies, and so on. It gives the players something to learn, and helps to tie them into the world more effectively.
finally, what are the big 3-5 nations like? are they religiously divided city-states (similar to Greece, where each city had it's own patron deity) or is one nation a theocracy, one a magocracy, and one a technocracy? Ideally, you want the nations to have a semi contentious relationship with each other, as that can drive storytelling and again help tie players to the world.
So it would seem that multiple pantheons of gods is the way forward, I see around 3-4 being the ideal number. While not opposed the idea of a "primal" pantheon, if they existed I would seem them as having been mostly supplanted by the "New" gods (and perhaps actually killed off, in a horrific war between pantheons. Which could easily be what led to the destruction of Vrog's first society of sentient's. The gods took the one sentient race from that time and modified them to suit their needs for this great war.)
On to races
I see all the core rulebook races being around, (though all descending from one "founder" race, probably human)
My view point on other races in the setting is as follows
Elemental demi-humans, so Ifrit, Oread, Sylph, Undine, Fetchling become a small set of traits that any of the other races can choose to take as alternate traits. But I see some being not accessible to certain races.
Asimar and Tiefling I see as templates that any race can take.
From Bestiary 1 and not in the setting: Boggard, Cyclops, Dark Creeper/ Stalker, Doppleganger, Dryder, Duergar (though some of their abilities could be alternate traits for dwarves), Ettin, Kobold, Lamia, Lizard folk, Medusa, Merfolk, Naga, Sahuagin, sverfneblin (similar to Duergar), Tengu, Troglodyte, vampire, Yeti
From Bestiary 1 and included in the setting Bugbear (as one interrelated race with hobgoblins and goblins), Centaur, Dragon, Drow, Giant (I see giants as being one race, perhaps with some of the different entries representing various castes and others not being used), Gnoll, Harpy, Lycanthrope, Minotaur, orc, troll
For the most part Fey and outsiders don't count as races in my opinion as they normally originate from another plane or just kind of exist without the need for a society. I can also see some of the sentient races as being very small in population or perhaps have in setting scholars confused as to how they still exist with their seemingly isolated nature. Some of the sentient creatures listed as not being in may still exist as individuals or in very small numbers left over from the horrors of the divine war.
Thoughts?
So let's start the discussion:
What level of technology are we shooting for? are there guns? robotics/clockwork/steampunk stuff?
How many deities do we wanna have? does each race have it's own pantheon?
speaking of races, does any race not have it's own homeland?
finally, on the discussion of races: what do you think would be a "cool" trope or niche for each race?
my answers/ideas on the above:
I think it would be interesting if we had different nations having different levels of the magic/technology spectrum. I think we should have a default nation that's not one way or the other, and then we can move other nations out into the extremes.
I would vote that we have a central pantheon of deities that each race worships, even if they have slight cultural or racial variants. the god of smithing is the god of smithing, but dwarves might expand this to include all crafting, and the elves might view him as the good of woodworking.
I would like to submit the following for the halfings (based in a campaign that I did prep work for that never went forward):
The halflings (they will have a name for themselves, but I can't think of one off the top of my head) are a nomad barbarian race that specializes in riding exotic mounts (the more exotic, the higher the status in Halfling society). They are well known as expert trackers and beast tamers, and racially they tend to specialize in chain and spear type weapons (spiked chain and lances).
They tend to range over a large area, and (much like the Mongols in real world earth history), they would be much feared as a rapacious horde.
We posted at almost the exact same time.
1) I would say the average would be medieval Europe + magic. As I said in the initial post I see this a being an E6 setting. I would avoid anything clearly clockwork or steampunk, but I can see some advanced nations having very primitive firearms in small experimental numbers.
2) As I stated in my post just before yours, I think 3-4 pantheons are they way to go, with a massive war between pantheons that spilled over into the mortal plane destroying your "first society".
3) I can see some races as not having a homeland/ nation to call their own. I like the idea of a nomadic barbarian group of halflings, perhaps they fight savage wars with centaurs over grazing rights and water sources?
I agree a Map is important. RDM42 do you want to be in charge of doing the map? for now just topography is needed. Are we wanting a flat world or a planet? Also I think around 3-4 continents is the way to go.
We posted at almost the exact same time.
1) I would say the average would be medieval Europe + magic. As I said in the initial post I see this a being an E6 setting. I would avoid anything clearly clockwork or steampunk, but I can see some advanced nations having very primitive firearms in small experimental numbers.
2) As I stated in my post just before yours, I think 3-4 pantheons are they way to go, with a massive war between pantheons that spilled over into the mortal plane destroying your "first society".
3) I can see some races as not having a homeland/ nation to call their own. I like the idea of a nomadic barbarian group of halflings, perhaps they fight savage wars with centaurs over grazing rights and water sources?
Personally, I always like the idea of nomadic dwarves. The original Huns were often described that way (I don't know if they were contemporary sources or not) and if you look at some of the greatest horsemen in the world they were often short and stocky. Not everyone was a 'rider of rohan'. And it inverts the dwarves as cavern dwelling homebodies.
Well, I think the best bet. Git actually be to use some real life topography that can be found easily on line and then you can make correspondences to real life locations and everyone will know whee they are. Like the aforementioned Australia.
One thing I was thinking of possibly would be a "lost continent" - the original location of this first race. Most of the existing races actually fled this place near the "end" of the Great War; which periodically and randomly becomes accessible. A location for adventuring with ruins and strange lost civilizations and the like.
The next consideration for the remaining continents it you want to somewhere cover all sorts of topography and climate. So at least one will have borders in the arctic. At least one has some of its territory in something resembling an equatorial region. At least one has some temperate regions.
Since as I said I like repurposing maps one repurposing would be to take a version of Australia and repurpose it - the outer regions are relatively temperate with a semi desert area in the middle.
Add in an area which is approximately analogous to both America without Mexico and a separate continent roughly similar to South America only moved slightly further north.
Detach Africa and move it closer to the others, and then add in the "missing continent'", and other landmasses ...
Move Antarctica. Makes for a perfect lost continent.
Well, I think the best bet. Git actually be to use some real life topography that can be found easily on line and then you can make correspondences to real life locations and everyone will know whee they are. Like the aforementioned Australia.
One thing I was thinking of possibly would be a "lost continent" - the original location of this first race. Most of the existing races actually fled this place near the "end" of the Great War; which periodically and randomly becomes accessible. A location for adventuring with ruins and strange lost civilizations and the like.
The next consideration for the remaining continents it you want to somewhere cover all sorts of topography and climate. So at least one will have borders in the arctic. At least one has some of its territory in something resembling an equatorial region. At least one has some temperate regions.
Since as I said I like repurposing maps one repurposing would be to take a version of Australia and repurpose it - the outer regions are relatively temperate with a semi desert area in the middle.
Add in an area which is approximately analogous to both America without Mexico and a separate continent roughly similar to South America only moved slightly further north.
Detach Africa and move it closer to the others, and then add in the "missing continent'", and other landmasses ...
Sounds good to me, as I said it is easier if one guy does the map, so can be the one to make it?
Sounds good to me, as I said it is easier if one guy does the map, so can be the one to make it?Well, I think the best bet. Git actually be to use some real life topography that can be found easily on line and then you can make correspondences to real life locations and everyone will know whee they are. Like the aforementioned Australia.
One thing I was thinking of possibly would be a "lost continent" - the original location of this first race. Most of the existing races actually fled this place near the "end" of the Great War; which periodically and randomly becomes accessible. A location for adventuring with ruins and strange lost civilizations and the like.
The next consideration for the remaining continents it you want to somewhere cover all sorts of topography and climate. So at least one will have borders in the arctic. At least one has some of its territory in something resembling an equatorial region. At least one has some temperate regions.
Since as I said I like repurposing maps one repurposing would be to take a version of Australia and repurpose it - the outer regions are relatively temperate with a semi desert area in the middle.
Add in an area which is approximately analogous to both America without Mexico and a separate continent roughly similar to South America only moved slightly further north.
Detach Africa and move it closer to the others, and then add in the "missing continent'", and other landmasses ...
Well. The question would be what to "draw" it in.
But, at any rate, it would give some ability to try to place things. You can say that "Dwarvish capital, which is named x is at about Perth. Nearest port Is here, etcetera.
I say with go with the world being a flat disk, that way your map can be on a circle without having to worry about how it fits on a sphere. It would also allow us to have to "lost" continent that was truly devastated be on a different disk that only comes into contact with the main disk at certain intervals.
Anything higher than 3rd level spells should be one of the following:
Magic done by a God
A powerful ritual that requires materials, time, possibly alignment of the stars, multiple casters or other similarly difficult requirements (getting progressively more difficult and probably only allowing some lvl 4 and 5 spells, performing a lvl 6 spell as a ritual would probably be an entire campaign to accomplish)
Done far in the past and impossible to replicate now
Two things; you could say the original god of magic died back in the war - one of the primals.
Second ...
How about using this map?
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.607996790280687568&pid=15.1
Things close enough to be similar for climate and the like, but different enough to be, well, different.
I can agree with the primal god of magic dying, I am sure that many gods died in the war.
Unfortunately I don't really like that map, it looks like there is more water than on earth currently, and I don't think a lot of small landmasses works as well as a few big ones.
Once we got rid of the names, plate activity locations and enlarged it, I think that would work.
Thoughts from other people?
Incidentally, talking about pantheons ... Just random spitballing for ideas.
You have the Old Primals: the elemental deities and the Creator - the prime deity left and the elemental gods do not participate in deific politics, so to speak - they were outside - and remain outsiders. Before time and the world existed, they were.
Then you have the primals, big concepts. Time. Chaos. Destruction. Order. Magic.
Then you have those who became the core of the modern pantheons - the children and grandchildren of the Primals. Gods who embodied, often, much more nuanced and philosophical concepts. Justice. War. Death. Law. Other concepts that come about with the burgeoning of civilization. These gods, and their priesthoods, finally came to a head and massively went to war against their 'parents'. The war was very destructive - and when it was over the primals were either dead - or gone, and massive amounts of people had fled their homeland, which disappeared behind them. These refugees settled in a largely fallow world and established people's and nations ...
Perhaps despite all leaving their homeland within a relatively short period of time (<10 years) there were vast gaps between migrations? hundreds of years potentially between waves that were arriving thinking that they were only months or years behind their friends or foes... only to discover that they were long dead an civilizations have been born in the mean time. With each new wave arriving a larger time interval from the last but each wave also grew as more people fled the cataclysmic destruction. It has been nigh on a thousand years since the last great migration but does that mean they have stopped....
I'll be at work, without internet access, for the next ten hours.
But I'm in. Let me know what aspect you need me to work on. Give me a project, set the parameters and let's see what I come up with.
I'll be at work, without internet access, for the next ten hours.
But I'm in. Let me know what aspect you need me to work on. Give me a project, set the parameters and let's see what I come up with.
How about you start working on sub-races. You can draw from alternate racial traits, similar species (like drow for elves), and elemental demi-humans (ifrit, oread, undine, fetchling, and slyph). Get up to 3 per core race.
So for example you might have the fire dwarves of asteloth, who are a combination of core dwarf traits, alternate dwarf traits and an ifrit trait or 2.
That way we will have some options for characters and it may help define some nations or tribes.
How do people feel about these initial dates for the timeline, note that these are dates on the current world, on the godlands less than 100 years (probably more like 50) have passed since the first survivors fled. It is also my thinking that each wave arrived on ships coming from off the west of the last map RDM42 posted
Post Great Invasion 998 Current Year some scholars are claiming that an even bigger invasion than the Great invasion of almost distant memory is almost upon us.
PGI 77 wars of the invasion have ended Continent X (to be named later) has be so ravaged by the wars that it has largely been abandoned.
Great Invasion 0 The last and largest wave of survivors fleeing the destruction of the godlands arrives.
Before Great Invasion 501 the 9th and final? wave of survivors arrives. It contains mages of power not seen in centuries.
BGI 749 the 8th wave arrives
BGI 873 It had been thought that no more survivors would come from the godlands until the 7th wave arrives on ships 60 years after the 6th, there is much conflict in the following years.
BGI 933 The 6th invasion makes peace with the nations of the new world and sails for distant shores, it's peoples not encountered again for decades.
BGI 960 The 5th invasion is entirely destroyed by the new civilizations that no longer wish to accept "refugees"
BGI 975 Survivors are now arriving trying to integrate themselves into existing societies, in some cases it goes smoothly, in others there is conflict.
BGI 982 Now that word has spread among the godlands that there is a realm "safe from the ravages of the godswar, the numbers fleeing begin to grow, a third wave arrives
BGI 985 A second wave of survivors arrives
BGI 986 the first wave flees the godlands and arrives in the new world (approximately 100, what race?)
BGI 990 The world of (insert setting name here) is discovered by explorers seeking shelter from the godswar
This gives us about 2000 years of history if we almost entirely ignore the mystical godlands
Thus leaving us with a continent of abandoned ruins, perhaps filled with treasures untold, or powerful magics, relics of a bygone era of power and might.
Ok, here's what I have so far. It isn't very refined yet but I got a couple of neat ideas (I think). I tried to make them a bit more...racially 'tailor-made' so that a Fire Dwarf and Fire Elf have very different abilities, making them completely different concepts...
Dwarf Sub Races
Lava Dwarf (Dwarf with Ifrit Ancestors) ; Energy Resistance (Fire), Relentless (replaces Stability)
Sandstorm Dwarf (Dwarf with Sylph Ancestors) Whispering Wind (replaces Stone-cunning),Breeze-Kissed ( replaces Hatred)
Dusk Dwarf (Dwarf with Fetchling Ancestors); Shadow Blending ( replaces Stone-cunning), Skilled(Fetchling) (replaces Greed)
Elf Sub Races
Smoke Elf(Elf with Ifrit Ancestors) Shadow Blending (Fetchling)(replaces Elven Magic), Skilled(Ifrit) (replaces Weapon Familiarity)
Rain Elf (Elf with Undine Ancestors); Hydrated Vitality (replaces Elven Magic), Energy Resistance (replaces Weapon Familiarity)
Storm Elf (Elf with Sylph Ancestors); Energy Resistance (replaces Elven Magic), Storm in the Blood (replaces Weapon Familiarity)
Halfling Sub Races
Darkling (Halfling with Fetchling Ancestors); Emissary (replaces Weapon Familiarity), Subtle Manipulator (replaces Fearless)
Dustling; Stone in the Blood (replaces Halfling Luck), Energy Resistance 5 (acid) (replaces Weapon Familiarity)
Tideling; Amphibious (replaces Weapon Familiarity), Terrain Chameleon (replaces Fearless)
Half Orc Sub Races
Rock Orc; Granite Skin (replaces Orc Ferocity), Mountain Born (replaces Intimidating)
Hush Orc; Whispering Wind (replaces Orc Ferocity), Like the Wind (replaces Intimidating)
Ember Orc; Fire Starter (replaces Orc Ferocity), Wild Fire Heart (replaces Intimidating)
Gnome Sub Races
Lightning Gnome; Storm in the Blood (replaces Obsessive), Energy Resistance (replaces Illusion Resistance)
Phase Gnome; Shadow Blending (replaces Illusion Resistance), Spell-like Abilities (disguise self, etc.) (replaces Gnome Magic)
Mist/Fog Gnome; Nereid Fascination (replaces Keen Senses), Acid Breath (replaces Gnome Magic)
A couple of thoughts:
1) I didn't bother with Half-Elves. I almost didn't bother with Half Orcs. I could do without them, or make Half Elves. Or you could rationalize why there is one but not the other.
2) I didn't give them Regions/Geographic origin points yet since I haven't seen map yet. But I can always go back and do that later once I know more.
3) I didn't do Ability Score adjustments yet.
I am not sure if I should keep the original Core Race Ability Mods or the Elemental Ability Mods or make a Frankenstein-Ability Mod.
What would you prefer?
I have to add that I wasn't keen on the idea of Core Races modified 'Elementally', so to speak.
But the more I worked on it, the more I was digging the concept.
I kind of like the idea of Sandstorm Dwarves, which I think would be good fit for the Nomadic Dwarves concept that someone mentioned earlier in the thread.
I am also partial to Phase Gnomes and Tidelings.
I get that. But, at the same time, it would make sense for them to start settling in places that feel comfortable to them.
I could easily see Lava Dwarves settling in a region of high earthquake/volcanic activity (Maybe an even more active analog to the Pacific Northwest-type place). Rain Elves might fit there, due to the temperate rain forests.
So, while they most certainly can be found anywhere, there are places that large groups would eventually feel more comfortable settling.
I am confused, map-wise, though. Which one are we using?
Also I wasn't saying all the sub-species have to have an elemental connection, some might just have a set of alternate racial traits for that define that sub-race. I am fine if you want to ditch some of the ones you have for less elemental sub races or if you want to keep what you have.
I get that. But, at the same time, it would make sense for them to start settling in places that feel comfortable to them.
I could easily see Lava Dwarves settling in a region of high earthquake/volcanic activity (Maybe an even more active analog to the Pacific Northwest-type place). Rain Elves might fit there, due to the temperate rain forests.
So, while they most certainly can be found anywhere, there are places that large groups would eventually feel more comfortable settling.
I am confused, map-wise, though. Which one are we using?
I agree that elemental sub-species are likely to settle somewhere that feels comfortable to them, they are probably also smaller in number than the main race, perhaps even limited to single clans, tribes or cities.
I like what you did with them, making fire dwarves clearly distinct from fire elves was a good idea.
Well, it's up to you. I am surprisingly happy with what I came up with. Though, I think I can come up with some other ideas, too, since I am finding this challenge fun.
What is your take? Any that you particularly don't care for?
Any you like and want to be expanded?
The thing is I like them all. Perhaps just add another sub-species that only uses normal, alternate and similar species (drow for elves for example) traits.
I particularly like how you did some that aren't as obvious, like wind dwarves and avoided some obvious ones like stone dwarves and how with most races different sub-species replace different racial traits.
What are your thoughts on my rough initial timeline?
The Timeline is workable. All it needs are some other major events, that don't revolve around the constant invasions. Possibley, the rise and fall of a couple of kingdoms or Empires.
And I understand you probably already plan on that, so, don't take that as a criticism. It wasn't meant to be! After all, it's just your initial effort. I can't wait to see it more fleshed out, as well, because then I will be able to better flesh out all of the Sub Races and start piecing in where they belong in the scheme of things.
As to races, I am glad you like them! You gave me another idea as well, so I am planning on another Sub Race for each Race. But each one is going to have a very different flavor/mechanic than their original race.
An example of this is the current one I am working on: A Halfling/Kitsune-like thing that revolves around Trickery and can shape change into a Coyote. Still fleshing it out, though.
Also, possible reincarnated Dwarf/Samsaran things called Raoshi.
The Timeline is workable. All it needs are some other major events, that don't revolve around the constant invasions. Possibley, the rise and fall of a couple of kingdoms or Empires.
And I understand you probably already plan on that, so, don't take that as a criticism. It wasn't meant to be! After all, it's just your initial effort. I can't wait to see it more fleshed out, as well, because then I will be able to better flesh out all of the Sub Races and start piecing in where they belong in the scheme of things.
As to races, I am glad you like them! You gave me another idea as well, so I am planning on another Sub Race for each Race. But each one is going to have a very different flavor/mechanic than their original race.
An example of this is the current one I am working on: A Halfling/Kitsune-like thing that revolves around Trickery and can shape change into a Coyote. Still fleshing it out, though.
Also, possible reincarnated Dwarf/Samsaran things called Raoshi.
I realize that more dates need to worked into the timeline, but it is a start that gives us our baseline to work within.
I love the ideas you are going with for other sub-races.
I would think you might throw in one oddball race - one that was native before the newcomers arrived, much more advanced. Could be kobolds, whatever - but something quite a bit different.
While I like the idea, I think they should have been very primitive.