As PC's go up in level the game changes the problems get bigger and PC's gain more influence. Given all of this it seems very likely that at some point PC's will end up fighting a army. (if nothing else it is a great way to generate fame).
So what do you think are some tactics P.C.'s can use again an army of say 20,000. Let's say the party is level 11-13.
I am mostly thinking hit and run would be the way to go the PC's Bluff up fly in and kill a few hundred then fly away before their bluff run out or the army can get it's act together. The just do that again every day. An army just can be as mobile as PC's. It seems like it would be the boring way to go about it, but it would be the safest and surest way I can see.
Walls of Fire can kill a lot of people. As can a lot of AoE spells.
Now what if the army has some high level commanders?
20k is A LOT of soldiers. Even if only 10% of them can actually target the PCs and only 5% of them roll natural 20 to hit, that's still 100 damage dice per round. You'll want some sort of Wind Wall et cetara to block incoming damage and any bit of DR goes a long way.
I'd say a more reasonable number would be in the 150-200ish well trained soldiers, moving in small groups to avoid the bulk of AoE damage (they are, under experienced command).
The actual number of soldiers notwithstanding though, I think battlefield control spells should come in much more handy than direct-damage ones because once you can isolate a pocket of safety within which you can recuperate/regroup every now and then, it's going to make fighting a lot easier. It's still going to be tedious however = =
Remember, at no point in history (except for the stone ages) did soldiers actually clash head-on into its enemies. Combats were fought in a series of skirmishes involving long-range weapons (slings, javelins and bow/crossbows) and melee combats were extremely coordinated between two armies.
The generals will likely be able to survice the summoned Monsters. The most common use for summoned Monsters is space fillers not people killers. And if you are doing this then you are doing full round actions in the middle of an enemy army. Even invisibly won't keep you safe.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Remember, at no point in history (except for the stone ages) did soldiers actually clash head-on into its enemies. Combats were fought in a series of skirmishes involving long-range weapons (slings, javelins and bow/crossbows) and melee combats were extremely coordinated between two armies.
Sorry, I couldn't let this pass.
Pre-gunpowder (and some post-) armies fought in head-on clashes. Long-range missile weapons were used to soften-up and draw out warriors but were rarely decisive. Until the English/Welsh war-bow ('longbow') and crossbows, long-range missile weapons simply weren't powerful enough to defeat armour and shields effectively enough to be significant.
Battles from Biblical, Classical, early Medieval ('Dark Age') and Medieval generally a similar pattern - a few exchanges of missile fire by those who had them (and not for long, if at all, if you knew that you were deficient in that area), a bit of a clash between rival skirmishers, then an advance into contact. Short-ranged missile fire (heavy javelins, pila, throwing axes, etc.) was exchanged during the advance as a means of disrupting the enemy formation.
The head-on clash then occurred. This could be the charge of 'barbarian' warriors, the clash of opposing shield walls, the crash of heavy infantry, foot knights or whatever. It was a blunt instrument and was certainly a head-on crash. Essentially, before the advent of effective and powerful long-range missile weapons, clashes between armies were indeed 'head-on clashes', possibly with a light smattering of skirmishing as they advanced.
Anything that is 'extremely coordinated' is looking at disaster without excellent communications, something pre-radio armies simply didn't have. It also relied on drill, discipline and thorough training. Examples such as the Roman Legions and the best of the classical Greek states aside, armies did not have that level of training.
|
Even a party of 12 PCs could get surrounded by a smaller group of say 1200 soldiers. You would need spells or geographic ways of bottleneck the army or block off certain groups you fight first. Plus, the spellcasters of the group will need a huge pile of scrolls to avoid the chance of not getting to sleep. If the general actually knows what he is doing and doesn't mind losing a few hundred soldiers, he would have groups of soldiers to attack in waves and keep the pressure constantly on.
|
|
What I would do if in the party is set us up like a bullseye target with the cleric(s) in the middle with melee guys 30 feet out in a circle formation around the cleric. Arcane casters and ranged fighters will be between the cleric and melee guys. This would be my plan if possibly surrounded.
Every melee guy gets bull's strength and stone skin at the very least. We all get life bubble and freedom of movement. If possible, the day long anti teleportation spell would go up as well so they can't drop something in on us.
Hit-and-run shouldn't work for long, and the 5-minute-adventuring-day will be a major liability in this case.
Imagine you're leading an army, and a party of high-level PCs wooshes in and hit-and-runs some part of your army. What do?
1. Hunker down and wait for them to do it over and over and over again under your army is slaughtered.
2. Make all possible speed towards your objective, now knowing much more about the PCs' capabilities -- and knowing that, even if you can't counter those directly, you've got 23 hours and 55 minutes to make headway on your objectives before they can do it again. :)
If the PCs are the sole defenders of some objective, say, a town, then taking a large opposing army head-on is probably a losing game: in between the PCs' daily salvos, the army can force march and take the town--which then neutralizes most AoE-based approaches to striking back.
(This is what I did to the PCs in my last homebrew where they were facing an army of thousands -- they took a brute force attack to the army, which realized it was under attack, and quickly mobilized to counterattack. After that, the PCs' goal changed from "fight off this army" to "evacuate the town".)
I'd advise PCs "fighting" an army of 20k to take actions other than "fighting" it: Take out the commanders. Negotiate. Raise their own army. Mitigate the damage by evacuating the target or otherwise removing the objective. Attack the army's home base, forcing them onto the defensive.
I wouldn't fight against the army, I'd fight against the one who sent them after me. I'd also consider why in the world some kingdom or nation has declared war on me and my 3 friends.
If he's sent the bulk of his forces to my backyard to try and kill me, I'll outmaneuver him (easier to move 4 people than it is his 20,000), and then go on a tear through his neighbourhood. By the time his troops have been mobilized and recalled, I won't be around anymore. Everytime he sends his armies after me, I come to him and make his life miserable. Armies stop marching when their home's are at risk, and morale degrades when they're on a wild goose chase. Eventually, the ruler's nation will demand to know why in the world their army is being marched back and fourth over and over again with nothing to show for it, and naturally, frustrations will mount when others' notice the army is missing and take advantage. Civil unrest will throw the nation into disarray, meanwhile my 3 friends and I are sitting in a tavern, or delving into a dungeon, or hiding in the forest, or any where else.
If we did go after the army, we wouldn't take them all on at once,since very few areas would be apply to support 20,000 soldiers (and an average army for medieval European would be around 8-10k, with a smattering of professional soldiers and the majority being armed farmers). We'd hit the isolated camps first. We'd hit supply routes, outposts, and skirmish rather than stare down thousands of enemies on an open field.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There are innumerable ways to go about it. I can tell you what I did.
When confronted with an encamped army of a few hundred troops, I had my character wait until nightfall, handed an appropriate gem to my familiar, and cast magic jar. The familiar discreetly manoeuvred around the sentries, entered the enemy's encampment and snuck into a barracks tent. I'd swap souls with a random occupant, quietly commit suicide while in their body (usually with their standard-issue knife forcefully plunged into an eye socket) and returned to the gem. I repeated the process with each soldier in the tent. The familiar would then carry the magic jar to the next tent and I'd start over. Repeat. I ended the evening by trying the same trick with the army's active sentries.
Magic Jar is an army killer. There's no limit to the number of possession attempts that can be attempted and the spell last for 1 hour per level! At the level needed to cast the spell, the vast majority of the army's foot soldiers were hard pressed to meet the save DC. Even if the mass-suicide-in-progress is discovered and an alarm goes up, what can be done to stop it? Anyone within range risks getting possessed and they either commit suicide or go on a murderous rampage. The chance of anyone noticing or understanding the significance of the gem-toting familiar in the ensuing chaos is low. The only viable defence is if the army immediately breaks and disperses widely.
A army mysteriously slain by its own maddened hand before dawn is almost biblical in its scope.
What if the army does not recall? Maybe they are into destruction. Or maybe they lack good communications.
I would think that a cat running around with gems in its mouth would be noticed pretty quick when people are trying to work out why everyone's killing themselves. Especially since they'll be suspecting a mage's involvement.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a deadly tactic, but it's doubtful you'd be able to take down the whole army with it.
I wouldn't fight against the army, I'd fight against the one who sent them after me. I'd also consider why in the world some kingdom or nation has declared war on me and my 3 friends.
This entire post assumes one thing: That the army is after you.
Typical adventurer mindset.
;D
What happens if the army is raiding villages? Or laying siege to a friendly baron? What happens if the army itself is the PCs' target?
Don't get me wrong, it's still a deadly tactic, but it's doubtful you'd be able to take down the whole army with it.
It would depend on the size of the army, how soon (if ever) the alarm is sounded, the troops' discipline, and whether the people with the required skills to figure out what's happening are on hand and savvy enough, whether they're then able to alert enough people with the right information for it to matter and plain old dumb luck. Even spotting the familiar, with appropriate buffs and maxed out stealth in the dead of night while distracted, isn't an easy matter for most foot soldiers.
Keep in mind, it'd be difficult for the army to coordinate any sort of effort when their soldiers are dropping like flies. Possessing the soldiers themselves has the added benefit that the magic jarring soul is able to reliably sow disinformation and chaos as he goes. "Cats or birds? No, that's wrong. The field marshal ordered our platoon to look for devil goblins!" "I heard we were supposed to be looking for shapeshifters." "I heard it was pixies charmin people." "Hey! Look there!" *stab* The soldiers will also soon stop cooperating with each other once their comrades begin randomly attacking them.
Even if the tactic meets with only 80%, 70% or 60% success, it's still devastating losses for the army; all with little to no resources expended on the party's end. And there's nothing preventing you from trying it again; the army has to stop and rest sometime… unless they're undead or something.
Mass combat rules...alternate rounds with pc's battling officers and the general war.
Of course, you rarely have to kill the entire army to beat it. A better tactic is simply to break its morale.
Or how about a few Putrefy Food and Drink on the army's supplies?
|
The generals will likely be able to survice the summoned Monsters. The most common use for summoned Monsters is space fillers not people killers. And if you are doing this then you are doing full round actions in the middle of an enemy army. Even invisibly won't keep you safe.
Flying invisibly above them, not in the middle of them. As for the power level of the generals - who knows? And if the generals are too strong, take out the layer of officers that is just the right level. Disrupt the chain of command.
Also fun: just causing general terror and dismay by summoning swarms into the enemy camp. Sure, you can use AoE to get rid of them, but that can be tricky if you don't want to hit your own people. And once you start blasting your own soldiers, morale plummets.
You'd want a lot of giant area battlefield control spells. Druids are the best at this, with spike stones, spike growth, and plant growth. (seriously, if they're low level and on the ground, the spike spells basically halt the force in its tracks, the d4 or d8 damage every 5 ft WILL kill them dead) Heck, even 1st level entangle has twice the radius most mid level wizard spells have. Dazing Spell + Stone Call is a great way to daze lock a bunch of soldiers if they're not spread out.
Considering a medium creature can only be surrounded by 8 foes at most at a time (barring reach weapons) and the kiting the party is likely to utilize anyway, defense vs. ranged attacks is paramount, the ideal being Fickle Winds on the party to go w/ everyone's flight.
Hit and Run does also work, of course. Especially if the party can teleport and the enemy can't.
Other tactics could include plopping a symbol of insanity in the middle of the army, or unleashing some shadows, wraiths, or other population-growing incorporeal undead. Depending on how much time the party has, Control Winds or other weather spells could be cast beforehand to just plain unleash a tornado on the enemy army.
The PCs might have to fight some of the infantry, but they should be doing more important than killing rank and file. They should be taking on the officers, breaking morale.
Take on the nazgul and such.
|
You'd want a lot of giant area battlefield control spells. Druids are the best at this, with spike stones, spike growth, and plant growth. (seriously, if they're low level and on the ground, the spike spells basically halt the force in its tracks, the d4 or d8 damage every 5 ft WILL kill them dead) Heck, even 1st level entangle has twice the radius most mid level wizard spells have. Dazing Spell + Stone Call is a great way to daze lock a bunch of soldiers if they're not spread out.
The druid versus army thing is all about Control Winds. A level 13 Druid is affecting an area with a radius of 520' so over 1000' across. He will be doing so while concealed as a small air elemental 40' off the ground. He can use Control Weather beforehand to ensure the starting weather level has at least a strong breeze. Control Winds turns that into Tornado strength winds for over two hours. The DC is likely to be in the range of 24. Commander types might manage to hold on but most troops, mounts and equipment are getting ripped into the air and savagely battered to death. Archery is impossible and flying creatures take a -16 penalty on fly checks. Anything smaller than huge risks being blown completely away.
Control Winds, accept no substitute for large scale mass battle control.
I have new insight into how the Master of Gales (a 15th level Druid and one of the leaders of the Shackles) got his title. Thanks for that. Doing that to a fleet of ships is probably even meaner.
Yeah, my thoughts were a bit disjointed, but I did note Control Winds, too. If you have the chance to use it, and don't have to worry about collateral damage, it's great.
As I said, Druids are the kings of destroying large groups of mundanes, no one does it better. Of course, they're also the worst caster for fighting other casters (severely lacking critical abjurations or getting them late, less divinations, less protective-against-spells buffs, etc...). But they're so good vs. noncasters, between spells, the meat shield err....animal friend, and the ability to turn into a fighter themselves while spontaneously bringing in more dumb brutes to the fray. They're like the ultimate bully class. They're strongest vs. the weakest characters and weakest vs. the strongest ones.
(Wizard is the best at keeping safe from angry mobs with pitchforks; Druid's just the best at utterly destroying them)