Alright everybody, I'd like to start by saying thanks for all of the help I got with my Hammerdwarf. He's working out really well. Unfortunately, as part of his background I made him a local of Carrion Hill who is kind of tied to the city. So when that adventure ends, if the party leaves Carrion Hill I'll end up needing to roll a different character.
So my next concept is a brawler with an emphasis on combat maneuvers. I think I want grapple and trip, and have been looking at the Brawler archetype, but Brawler seems to have a higher focus on Bull Rush and Overrun rather than Grapple or Trip.
For concept, I'd really like to build him as more of a brawler than a monk, though I'm not tied to any specific class or taking a dip if you guys think that would be beneficial.
Any race is allowed, but I'd like to play one of the more mundane races (Human, elf, dwarf) and I'm kind of leaning toward Dwarf right now.
Assume level 6, 20 point buy, two traits. I appreciate any help you guys can offer! Thank you!
I've got a player who's dipped into multiple classes to make the archetypes he wants "maximized" for a really sick brawler, and it includes 2 levels of monk, maneuver master, Dragon style (to get flurry and ability to substitute maneuvers for attacks as well as evasion plus bonus damage on first hit in a round), 4 levels of rogue, scout (to get sneak attack on a charge and some extra feats with rogue talents), and the rest to Fighter, brawler (for obvious reasons).
While he's appears useless ranged (flight potions anyone), he's pretty darn nasty against most every foe. This is a highly optimized build, so really dependent on your game how much you want to break the bank.
I guess I should clarify the amount of optimization I'm after. I want to be effective, but not broken. The DM is still relatively new (She's running Carrion Hill right now and it's her first time DMing)so I don't want to be pushing things to their limit. On the other hand, I do want him to be good at his job which in case case will be putting people on their backsides and tying them up (and probably some pushing them around as well).
You'd have a really hard time to become a broken grappler/tripper using martial classes. The best you can hope to get is highly optimized.
Okay, breakdown as follows:
The best overall maneuver build is Lore Warden (Fighter archetype) dipping around Maneuver master (Monk archetype, 1-2 levels). Sadly, this build is not really good at grapples, but it's... adequate, and is probably the best tripper without getting into classes that have 6 or 9 level spell casting.
The best grapplers are the Tetori Monk and Barbarian (almost straight 20, can take a dip in Brawler fighter from the ACG). The tetori monk is the straightforward one, can grapple anything. The barb needs magic items to make up for his inability to grapple some foes usually, but has a stupidly high grapple check. Also, it's a barb. Even if you can't grapple, you can deal damage.
If you are going for Grapple and Trip, I'd probably go with a Lore Warden/MoMS build, getting generic CMB/D Bonuses, and getting to both Grapple and Trip in the same round. If you want one or the other, then Lore Warden is a great tripper and Tetori Monk is the grappler to end all grapplers, being the only one who can overcome Freedom of Movement.
If you are open to other forms of maneuvers, Dirty Trick is kinda Brawler-y, and it is really nice if you have the feats for it. Also, if you go with dirty trick, there is the Cad, which seems more like a Brawler IMO then the Brawler fighter.
The Binding Throw maneuver seems to fit for your case. Maneuver master up to lvl 10, then possibly lore warden or brother of the seal if you are allowed for the rest of your lvls. It is not going to be a broken build (certainly worse that the options LoneKnave presented) but it will allow you to mix trip and grapple in an interesting way.
Feat wise, it should look like this:
Human Qinggong Maneuver Master Monk 10 / Lore Warden 3
STR 19 (+1 at 4th lvl)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 14 (+1 at 8th and 12th lvls)
CHA 7
Traits: Bred for War, Snowstride
1 Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (bonus), IUS (bonus), Stunning Fist (bonus), Vicious Stomp
2 Improved Grapple (bonus)
3 Ki Throw
5 Binding Throw, Power: Barkskin
6 Greater Trip (bonus)
7 Wolf Style, Power: Gaseous form
9 Wolf trip
10 Greater Grapple (bonus)
11 Pinning Knockout, Rapid Grappler (bonus)
12 Wolf Savage (bonus)
13 Enhanced Ki Throw
Add in "gang up" and a heavy focus in strength along with some magic spiked gauntlets and the damage from an "unarmed" attacker can be constructed to rival many melee, with the option to dirty trick, trip, etc. Throwing dirt to "blind" a combatant then getting some sneak attacks in is just wrong. It's like...a...dirty trick.
@ XMorsX: I strongly disagree with more than 4 levels of maneuver master. If you really, really want the free feat and the meditative maneuver, then I guess maybe 6. But lvl8 is a massive trap... although, on further reading you aren't forced to make two extra maneuvers so I guess it could be fine-ish.
EDIT: Also, I never paid attention but maneuver defense seems like it could give you free AoOs agains't foes with Grab or Trip on their natural attacks (wolves, krakens, whatever). That's pretty good actually.
LoneKnave wrote: @ XMorsX: I strongly disagree with more than 4 levels of maneuver master. If you really, really want the free feat and the meditative maneuver, then I guess maybe 6. But lvl8 is a massive trap... although, on further reading you aren't forced to make two extra maneuvers so I guess it could be fine-ish.
EDIT: Also, I never paid attention but maneuver defense seems like it could give you free AoOs agains't foes with Grab or Trip on their natural attacks (wolves, krakens, whatever). That's pretty good actually.
The 6th lvl is quite essential for Greater trip without the Int prereq. Meditative Maneuvers will make your CMB competitive and maneuver defense is actually solid vs trips and grabs as you pointed out.
I went up to the 10th lvl because this build is very reliant to ki and has no easy way to replenish it. But you are probably right, the 6th lvl is a good stopping lvl.
Indeed, you are not forced to make two maneuvers on a full attack, so having more options is definately good.
Anyway, here is a revised version with only six lvls of maneuver master:
Human Qinggong Maneuver Master Monk 6 / Lore Warden Fighter 6
STR 19 (+1 at 4th lvl)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 14 (+1 at 8th and 12th lvls)
CHA 7
Traits: Bred for War, Snowstride
1 Monk Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (bonus), IUS (bonus), Stunning Fist (bonus), Vicious Stomp (Human bonus)
2 Monk Improved Grapple (bonus)
3 Monk Ki Throw
5 Monk Binding Throw, Power: Barkskin
6 Monk Greater Trip (bonus)
7 Fighter Wolf Style, Enhanced Ki Throw (bonus)
8 Fighter Greater Grapple (bonus)
9 Fighter Wolf Trip
10 Fighter Wolf Savage (bonus) (you should have a headband of Wis +2)
11 Fighter Rapid Grappler
12 Fighter Pinning Knockout (bonus)
Awesome! So much help already! If you guys think Trip + Grapple will leave me stretched I'm open to other combat maneuvers. I'm going to look over these builds a bit more in detail and respond again with more questions but thank you guys so much!
Edit: So if I'm using monk levels do I just want to not be wearing armor/worrying about AC too much?
DetectiveKatana wrote: Awesome! So much help already! If you guys think Trip + Grapple will leave me stretched I'm open to other combat maneuvers. I'm going to look over these builds a bit more in detail and respond again with more questions but thank you guys so much!
Edit: So if I'm using monk levels do I just want to not be wearing armor/worrying about AC too much?
You are welcome.
Trip is a great maneuver when it works, but many times it is very hard (high CMD)/ impossible (flying/immune) to do it.
Grapple is not so great unfortunately, unless you invest everything you have in it. It is a supplementary maneuver in the above build though, when you need to isolate someone badly, or to counter a caster etc.
Check the various combos that can be done with the above feat choices (greater trip + vicious stomp, binding throw, the wolf style feats) and the maneuver master class abilites and see if you like the playstyle.
Arguably, Dirty trick scales better than any maneuver, and focusing in trip + dirty trick is mechanically more efficient that trip + grappling. You lose though an interesting interaction like Binding throw.
I can't seem to find wolf style.
Hey guys, it looks like another DM is gonna take a crack at it after this Carrion Hill run so thanks for all of the advice but I won't get the chance to use it! When I start DMing again I'll be back to ask for advice on characters.
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