Crafting Magic Items Help

[PatientWolf]

I'm currently running Rise of the Runelords and have a player who is wanting to craft magic items. He is poring over the item creation table to try and make items that basically do the same as existing items for cheap.

I remember a quote here, by I think Jason Buhlman, that if the table would allow you to create a magic item that does the same thing as an existing item but at a greatly reduced cost to use the cost of the existing item. Unfortunately my searchfu has failed me and I cannot find it.

Can anyone point me where to find that? I could just make a GM ruling to the same effect but would like to have the dev quote to back that up anyway.

[ryric]

Using the table to create custom items is a last resort. Says so right in the rules:

PRD wrote:

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

(emphasis mine) So if an existing item already does what you want, you don't even get to the table.

So it's not a dev quote but hopefully quoting the actual rules is useful to you.

IMO, custom item creation is a rules set meant for GMs more than for players. You get plenty of use out of item creation feats even if you can only make book items.

[Splendor]

Things to keep in mind:
1)Multiple Similar Abilities: Discount only applies to abilities that arn't being used at the same time. Ex- Items that grant stat bonus are not -50% because they are constant.
2)Multiple Similar Abilities: Discount only applies to items that don't take up a slot.
3) Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Don't allow this! It reduces the cost by too much and I can't think of any items in the game that are priced using this.

[Diego Rossi]

Splendor wrote:

3) Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Don't allow this! It reduces the cost by too much and I can't think of any items in the game that are priced using this.

PRD wrote:

Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Cost is the crafting cost. it cost 10% less to make a item that require a specific skill to get it to function.

But

PRD wrote:

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.

Price is the sell and purchase price. Not the crafting cost.

You don't get a discount making this item, you get less money when selling it and, if someone is selling a item with this limitation, you will pay less for it than for a regular version.

- * -

PRD - Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Pricing New Items

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.

The prices in the CRB and other sources are the prices you should use, even if the player is crafting slightly different items (example: a shirt of resistance instead of a cloak).

I the item is a new one but other existing items are similar powers you should base the new item cost on the existing item cost, with appropriate modifiers (a pair of winged boot that allow the user to fly for 15 minutes every day while spending the allotted times in 1 minute increments instead of 3 stretches of 5 minutes are noticeably more powerful than the standard version, so they should cost more than the standard version).

When evaluating the price of completely new items you start at teh top of the table, not the bottom. So, if a item give you the benefits of a permanent shield spell, the first factor is that it give you 4 points of AC, then the fact that it work against incorporeal touch effects (equivalent to the ghost touch power) and then the immunity to magic missile (more powerful than a brooch of shielding). That is what should be used to determine the item price. Not that it is a constant first level spell.

[Splendor]

The book seems to use the term price and cost interchangeably.
Unless you believe only "Item skill use" is the only one that actually reduces the cost.

Quote:

Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.

Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item's slot) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.

[Sarrah]

Splendor wrote:

Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.

While not explicitly stated (I am not going to even begin to argue the definition differences between cost and price on the forums), every table I have sat at believes that these reductions also reduce the sale value of the item by the same percentage.

Diego Rossi wrote:

(example: a shirt of resistance instead of a cloak).

I believe the book says that if an item is normally in a slot and you place it in another slot, then the price is doubled.

[Splendor]

The section on "Altering Existing Magic Items" has stuff on changing slots. But any mechanics are left up to the DM and no rules are presented, just some suggestions and nothing about doubling the price.

Doubling the price wouldn't make sense, because 'slotless' items are normally double the price. Why take up a slot and spend double when you could make it slotless for double.

I just go with what makes sense. I could see a Vest of Strength but not a headband or goggles.

[Diego Rossi]

Sarrah wrote:

Splendor wrote:

Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.

Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.

While not explicitly stated (I am not going to even begin to argue the definition differences between cost and price on the forums), every table I have sat at believes that these reductions also reduce the sale value of the item by the same percentage.

Reducing the production cost reduce the sale price, so the 10% reduction applies to both, but the 30% reduction speak only of price, not cost.

Sarrah wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

(example: a shirt of resistance instead of a cloak).

I believe the book says that if an item is normally in a slot and you place it in another slot, then the price is doubled.

There was a rule in 3.X about inappropriate item slots increasing the cost for the item, but it don't exist in Pathfinder.

Splendor wrote:

The book seems to use the term price and cost interchangeably.

Unless you believe only "Item skill use" is the only one that actually reduces the cost.

It may seem that it use the world interchangeably but it don't.

Here are the words of one of the game developers about that:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

James Risner wrote:

So more than likely, the price will be as if the light/esplend worked for everyone despite the fact it doesn't.

Correct.

When building an item, you calculate the cost to create it as if it were in the hands of an optimal user. Otherwise it's basically cheating. Observe:

Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6. Cost to create: 18,000 gp

vs.

Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6, but it only works for male humans (discount!) named Ezren (discount!) who are at least "old" age (discount) and were born in Absalom (discount!). Cost to create: ridiculously cheap, even though it works exactly like a standard headband +6.

For the OP's question:
Eagle’s splendor 2*3*1800/5 = 2160
Burning hands SL1 x CL3 x 1800/5 = 1080
Using the "multiple different abilities" guideline, we multiply the cost of the burning hands ability by 1.5 to get 1620
2160 + 1620 = 3,780

Glowing with light at will is pretty insignificant--it's not as good as being able to cast light at will (because only the orb lights, rather than being able to cast it on a coin you can throw, an ally's weapon, etc.), so I didn't use the standard SL .5 x CL 3 x 1800 for an on-command unlimited cantrip. Furthermore, the caster level of an unlimited-use light cantrip has a negligible effect (the effect on the duration is irrelevant because it's an at-will ability, and the increased resistance to a dispelling attempt is essentially irrelevant). Plus, the option to light at will is something you get for free in magic weapons, so throwing it in here at something than the formulaic cost is fair. As the mathematical price of the item so far is a non-simple number, I rounded the price up to 3,900 gp (1) to take into account the cost of the light ability, and (2) to make the final gp price nicer.

Tilquinith wrote:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

When building an item, you calculate the cost to create it as if it were in the hands of an optimal user. Otherwise it's basically cheating. Observe:

Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6. Cost to create: 18,000 gp

vs.

Ezren makes a headband of vast intelligence +6, but it only works for male humans (discount!) named Ezren (discount!) who are at least "old" age (discount) and were born in Absalom (discount!). Cost to create: ridiculously cheap, even though it works exactly like a standard headband +6.

So then why bother to include these discounts? When would you ever use them, other than perhaps to screw over PC's by including treasure they not only might not be able to use but also can't sell for as much money?

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

That's pretty much the reason--and it's not me being a jerk, it's (insert evil race) being jerks.

And it makes people who max out Use Magic Device happy for their investment.