I can't really tell if this should go here in the "Homebrew" or the "Conversion" section (as I see both sections having threads very similar to these) so I'm sticking this in both and seeing which bites.
So I decided to take it upon myself to make the Hound Archon into a kind of playable race/class. Here's the really rough ideas that I have right now. Let me know if there's anything that should be added/removed on account of balance and sticking to the creature's lore. The idea is to make it a mix of holy support and melee, much like a Paladin except not able to use shields or healing.
Racial Traits:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
Darkvision (60 ft)
Low-light Vision
Powerful Build
Bite (1d8)
Detect Evil (at will)
Some kind of natural armor bonus
Small resistance to electricity (covered in Empyreal Heart)
+4 to saving throws against poison (covered in Empyreal Heart)
Small DR/evil
Replace the word "Undead" with "Evil or Chaotic Outsider" in spell and feat descriptions.
Truespeech
Spell-Like abilities:
Aid (One time a day + Cha mod. Must have at least 12 in Cha to cast)
Teleport (Two times a day)
Continual Flame (Once a day)
Aura of Menace (Same reqs as Aid)
It gets Celestial Heart much like an Empyreal Knight except the Aura is available at level 1 and scales up every 6 levels.
To prevent this from being too powerful the natural armor bonus, resistance to electricity and poison, and DR/Evil would either just outright be small or scale with character level. Now, for the class stuff.
For the most part, it acts like a Paladin except with some changes:
Hit Die: d8
Has to remain within one step of Lawful Good.
Doesn't need to follow a specific conduct, but has to stay within the alignment range. If not, loses any divine spells until redeemed.
Proficient with all 2-handed weapons (Bastard Sword counts for this) and all Martial weapons, but not shields.
Proficient with light and medium armor.
Can't use any healing spells/abilities.
No Mercies or Lay on Hands to stay on guidelines of existing class.
Has an inexplicable compulsion to clean/oil their weapon at least every other day. Failure means taking an attack penalty until cleaned.
Not sure if I should go 3/4 or full BAB
Starts with +2 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will save and scales accordingly.
Skills: Knowledge (Planes, Religion), Climb, Sense Motive, Perception, Acrobatics, Intimidate, Craft, Spellcraft, Swim, Handle Animal.
I figured that not having Mercies or access to the healing spells and the slightly smaller Hit Die balances well with having Powerful Build (Half-giant is able to get it as a racial anyway), the small damage resistances and the Magic Circle. I actually got the idea of Powerful Build from "Some hound archons can grow to a great size, and these creatures are a much more powerful foe" and "This powerfully built, dog-headed humanoid is a hound archon". While this Archon is Medium sized, Powerful Build seems to fit. Cleaning the weapon is a reference to the description saying "This canine-headed humanoid's well-groomed appearance and polished greatsword show it to be more than a common beast".
Story-wise, this could work. Imagine you're in some kind of holy city. It wouldn't be too big of a stretch (although maybe a little surprising) to see one of these guys acting as some kind of emissary from Heaven or acting as a holy guard of some leader there. The Archon gets sent along with the party for some reason or another. Maybe the leader sent the Archon along to help with some task he/she set forth, or maybe the Archon is meant to watch the other players to make sure they don't royally screw up. Hell, maybe he just simply got bound to the plane by some summoner but was able to retain his free will.
Any ideas or suggestions? I like the idea of splitting it into race and class separately, meaning someone could still use this as a character even if they don't want to play some kind of Paladin variant. Honestly, the thing I really need are some good numbers for the resistances and other things I purposefully left vague since I wouldn't really know where to draw the line would for too good or too useless.
In pathfinder, BAB is usually tied to hit die. I tend to not like to pull that leaver. Just leave the hit die at a D10. If you are going to make a class out of the archon anyways, why not hold off on giving her those racial abilities for later into the class? They are rather strong at level 1.
I would take out the regular paladin spells entirely and just give her more spell-like abilities uses as she levels up. That would probably do more to offset the might that is powerful build (+lead blades or +enlarge person).
I dunno, though. The things that are in the race and the things that are in the class are a little confusing to me here.
I am not feeling the "all two handed weapons" proficiencies, either. That is sort of nuts. Maybe just give her bastard swords?
Excaliburproxy wrote: In pathfinder, BAB is usually tied to hit die. I tend to not like to pull that leaver. Just leave the hit die at a D10. If you are going to make a class out of the archon anyways, why not hold off on giving her those racial abilities for later into the class? They are rather strong at level 1.
I would take out the regular paladin spells entirely and just give her more spell-like abilities uses as she levels up. That would probably do more to offset the might that is powerful build (+lead blades or +enlarge person).
I dunno, though. The things that are in the race and the things that are in the class are a little confusing to me here.
I am not feeling the "all two handed weapons" proficiencies, either. That is sort of nuts. Maybe just give her bastard swords?
The two handed weapon proficiency is due the fact that lore-wise, Hound Archons really only use 2-handed weapons. Would you suggest only giving it Martial Weapons but giving a bonus that scales with level when using 2-handed weapons? And although I admit that it's 3PP, the Aegis class is able to give itself Powerful Build and a double expansion all on its own without multi-classing. That makes me think that only having Powerful Build (which is already possible with the half-giant race released with Psionics Unleashed) makes it seems that Powerful Build isn't too over the top by itself. I can see how the other things combined with it though might be a little unsettling with the other racial bonuses and resistances. I'll see what I can do about the balancing. What kind of spell-like abilities are you thinking though if Paladin spells are off the table that won't restrict the class to being a one-trick pony?
Well, that could work. Just limit their divine bond to two-handed melee weapons. Maybe let them activate divine bond as a swift too (or alternately as part of a charge or standard action attack if you anyone is worried about them full attacking on the first round when surprised). Why don't you write down the class archetype (like what replaces what and when) and then I--as well as others--can help you tweak it (either just a little or a bunch).
Excaliburproxy wrote: Well, that could work. Just limit their divine bond to two-handed melee weapons. Maybe let them activate divine bond as a swift too (or alternately as part of a charge or standard action attack if you anyone is worried about them full attacking on the first round when surprised). Why don't you write down the class archetype (like what replaces what and when) and then I--as well as others--can help you tweak it (either just a little or a bunch). Alright, will do. Give me a sec to get everything together.
Archetype this is based off of: Empyreal Knight, published by Paizo. When I say "base archetype", I mean the Empyreal archetype of Paladin. When I say "core class", I mean the original Paladin class.
Changes from the base:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Proficient with all martial weapons, with medium and light armor, and no shields.
Skills: Knowledge (Planes, Religion), Climb, Sense Motive, Perception, Acrobatics, Intimidate, Craft, Spellcraft, Swim, and Handle Animal.
Level 1:
-You gain the protective aura against evil ability like from Celestial Heart. However, it starts with only a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 bonus to saving throws to allies within 20 feet. It gains another +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th levels. Also, it will not prevent evil summoned creatures from entering the area until 12th level. (basically making it on par with the base archetype ability at later levels, but not too strong at the beginning considering the low amount of rounds it can be sustained a day at the start).
-In spell descriptors, replace the word "Undead" with "Evil and/or Chaotic Outsider". (This fits with the Hound Archon's lore)
-You start proficient in a single type of 2-handed weapon of your choice, including Bastard Swords. You get a +1 Attack Bonus that increases by +1 every 4 levels when using this weapon.
-You may not cast healing spells or abilities other than those granted by your race.
Level 2:
-Does not get Voices of the Spheres (since an Archon would know Celestial already). Instead, it gets Divine Grace like the core class which Voices of the Spheres would normally replace.
Level 3:
-Celestial Heart as the base archetype except without the cold resistance. Also, the protective aura against evil is available at level one as described above. Note: this replaces the mercies that the core class would have.
Level 5:
-Divine Bond works like the core class instead of the base archetype.
Level 20:
-Gain Holy Champion like the core class instead of Empyreal Champion from the base archetype (since it doesn't make sense for a Hound Archon to grow wings, and Darkvision is already a racial).
Code of Conduct:
No specific Code of Conduct, but players are highly encouraged to keep the race within one step of Lawful Good (Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good). DMs are free to choose appropriate penalties if this conduct is broken such as some kind of loss of holy power until redeemed in some way.
Racial stuff:
+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int
-Darkvision (60 ft)
-DR 1/Evil that increases every 3 character levels, to a maximum of 5. This does not stack with other DR/Evil effects. (As a Hound Archon, most things that you're fighting should be evil anyway. Also, the base archetype gives a DR 10/evil at 20. Scaling wise, this is less effective than the base archetype class. This just lets you get a small bonus from it early and fits the Hound Archon's lore)
-Low-light Vision
-Powerful Build
-Gets a Bite attack 1d8)
-Aid (One time a day + Cha mod. Must have at least 12 in Cha to cast)
-Continual Flame (Once a day)
-Aura of Menace (Same reqs as Aid. Will save is equivalent to 10 + 1/2 player level + CHA modifier)
-Must clean/oil any weapons and spiffy up any armor it personally used at least every other day if still in their possession. If not, any Aura effects are reduced from +4 to +2 when having that item equipped. This should take roughly 15-30 minutes. (Fits with the groomed appearance of Hound Archons. If the person giving you battle morale looked anything less than exemplary, wouldn't you feel a lesser effect?)
Basically, I made it so that the resistances it would normally get from being an Archon is gained through class abilities. While not technically a racial at that point, it still functions just the same so it feels like a Hound Archon still. Gave Aura of Menace an average Will save. You get Aid as a racial, but you can't use any healing spells or channel because of the base archetype and you can't use it very many times. Everything either has a precedent, any "exploits" can be done better with another class, or it has some other balancing feature in place to keep it on-par with what's already in existence.
That attack bonus is really way too powerful (that is +6 at level 20 which is nuts). Just enhance the divine bond with two-handed weapons (like making it easier to activate) and/or maybe only having smites have their full effect with two-handed weapons.
It's racial abilities are all super powerful too (aura of menace is too good to keep and maybe needs to be built into the class and the same and that DR is too good to get just from a base race).
The purpose of the custom class is to spread these racial benefits over time, right? I still think you might need to drop spellcasting or something else to fit it all in there. Lay-on-hands for that main aura seems like a roughly reasonable trade, though.
Excaliburproxy wrote: That attack bonus is really way too powerful (that is +6 at level 20 which is nuts). Just enhance the divine bond with two-handed weapons (like making it easier to activate) and/or maybe only having smites have their full effect with two-handed weapons.
It's racial abilities are all super powerful too (aura of menace is too good to keep and maybe needs to be built into the class and the same and that DR is too good to get just from a base race).
The purpose of the custom class is to spread these racial benefits over time, right? I still think you might need to drop spellcasting or something else to fit it all in there. Lay-on-hands for that main aura seems like a roughly reasonable trade, though.
Alright, so change the attack bonus. How about... I don't know, start the attack bonus at level 4 and increase it every 8 levels? That will give it +3 at 20, basically half of what I had there. Also what if I put Aid, Continual Flame, Aura of Menace and the DR/evil as feats to buy kind of like a Kitsune's Magical Tail powers? That way it isn't something that I get to have just because and I actually need to invest to get it.
Not sure why you're telling me to drop the spellcasting though since everything relating to the class is already just lifted directly from what Paizo has published, spellcasting and all. Really the only difference between what I've said for class stuff and what's put here (published by Paizo): Empyreal Knight is that I made that aura available earlier but eventually scales up instead of just a massive effect available at level 17, and switched one of the equivalent core -> archetype skills (although the core skill is arguably much, MUCH better). To compensate for the earlier grab (keep in mind it can only be maintained for as many rounds and Paladin levels. Since that makes it useless at first couple levels, I might make it last CL+Cha mod rounds), it doesn't get the resistance to cold it would normally obtain and it can't take any of the healing spells.
Well, the problem is that the base race is stronger than anything else so the idea is to take stuff out of the race and add it to the class (with the DR and aura of menace).
And any kind of attack bonus is a HUGE buff, especially considering that a paladin already has smites and what-have-you.
Excaliburproxy wrote: Well, the problem is that the base race is stronger than anything else so the idea is to take stuff out of the race and add it to the class (with the DR and aura of menace).
And any kind of attack bonus is a HUGE buff, especially considering that a paladin already has smites and what-have-you.
How is it "stronger than anything else" at this point? With the racial feat idea, all it has completely normal Ability Score modifiers, Low-light vision (extremely common among races), gets a bite attack (let's lower that to a 1d6 now that I think about) and Powerful Build. Compare that to half-giant which gets Powerful Build, Low-light vision, +2 saving throws against anything fire-based, free Wild Talent/Psionic Talent feat, can use Stomp once a day, and gets +4 to survival checks.
Alright, so I take out the DR/evil possibility and add the Darkvision to the feat list as well. Consider what the Kitsune can do with their racial feats: make themselves look like whoever they want, Charm Person, Suggestion, Invisibility, Confusion (The AoE kind no less) and Dominate Person (plus more, those are just the really interesting ones that jump at me). Looking at that, Darkvision, Aura of Menace (which becomes dispelled as soon as the opponent hits me. Maybe take away the attack penalty to even things out a bit if it's still a problem?), Aid (rather limited castings) and Continual Flame (extremely limited castings) don't seem that overpowered.
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