Barbed Vests and Mithral Armor

[Phylotus]

I'll get to the point: I had a question about wearing barbed vests when you have medium armor made of mithral. In the description of mithral, it says armor is considered lighter for movement and other limitations, and I was curious if the barbed vest fit under the "other limitations."

I ask because I have a half elven ranger that I was thinking of buying mithral chain mail or a mithril breastplate and was thinking of whether I would want to sell my barbed vest or not.

I have searched around the message boards and the internet and have found nothing on this subject, so any input is appreciated :-)

[Kazaan]

Since the vest talks about being "worn over" light or no armor, it is implicitly talking about the bulk of the armor it is worn over. Mithral armor isn't inherently less bulky, it's just lighter and, thus, easier to move around in. This is why you still need Medium proficiency to wear a Medium mithral armor, even though it's considered light for things like interacting with a Bard's spells or other abilities that require you to be wearing no heavier than light armor. So I'd say it's still too bulky to properly wear the vest; it would be stretched and the barbs wouldn't rest at the proper angles to be effective if you tried.

[aboniks]

Barbed vest + Mithral Shirt, seems legit under RAW.

Barbed vest + Mithral Chainmail, seems like DM fiat.

[Phylotus]

Alright, thanks for clearing that up for me

[Phylotus]

aboniks wrote:

Barbed vest + Mithral Shirt, seems legit under RAW.

Barbed vest + Mithral Chainmail, seems like DM fiat.

This character is a society character, so while my normal GM may allow it, I'm afraid others (at conventions or the like) wouldn't be so willing to allow it

addendum: chances are I'm going to go for the breastplate because of the armor check penalty. That, or mountain pattern for the same reason

[aboniks]

Mithral shirt seems like the answer then.

Unless gear from Ultimate Equipment is disallowed. (I know nothing of PFS)

[Phylotus]

aboniks wrote:

Mithral shirt seems like the answer then.

Unless gear from Ultimate Equipment is disallowed. (I know nothing of PFS)

As far as I know gear from Ultimate Equipment isn't disallowed. Are you meaning mithral chain shirt when you say mithral shirt?

[aboniks]

Item: Mithral shirt

Mithral Shirt

Aura no aura (non-magical); CL —; Weight 10 lbs.; Price 1,100 gp
DESCRIPTION

This extremely light chain shirt is made of very fine mithral links. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, and no armor check penalty. It is considered light armor.

[Phylotus]

aboniks wrote:

Item: Mithral shirt

Mithral Shirt

Aura no aura (non-magical); CL —; Weight 10 lbs.; Price 1,100 gp
DESCRIPTION

This extremely light chain shirt is made of very fine mithral links. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 10%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +6, and no armor check penalty. It is considered light armor.

Does it have an AC bonus? That's the reason I'm going for something in medium armor is the higher AC that is has compared to light armor

Edit: Never mind, it says in the description... I can be a moron sometimes

[Zhayne]

The restriction on what armor you can wear the vest with is a limitation.
Mithral says your armor is a category lighter for purposes of limitations.

RAW clearly states you can combine a barbed vest with mithral armor.

[Phylotus]

Zhayne wrote:

The restriction on what armor you can wear the vest with is a limitation.

Mithral says your armor is a category lighter for purposes of limitations.

RAW clearly states you can combine a barbed vest with mithral armor.

While I accept that the RAW state it as so, I feel the logic would dictate what our friend Kazaan said is how it should be: while the armor is physically lighter, it still has the same physical bulk as it did when it was made of its original material (iron or steel, most likely). While at the same time it doesn't make much sense as to why one would not be able to wear the vest with chain mail normally, while leather lamellar is physically bulkier than chain mail. So... I guess there is a sort of break there, though I am inclined to go with Kazaan's interpretation of the description as the interpretation that most GMs (especially event GMs) would be holding

And as a side note: No, RAW do not CLEARLY state that you can do this, otherwise I wouldn't have started this thread (chuckle)

[Zhayne]

Looks crystal clear to me.

X is a limitation.
Y negates that limitation.
Therefore, that limitation is negated.

[Kazaan]

Zhayne wrote:

Looks crystal clear to me.

X is a limitation.
Y negates that limitation.
Therefore, that limitation is negated.

Unless the unwritten rules say that it negates limitations imposed on the wearer, which, of course, wouldn't apply to limitations imposed on the vest. It's more than reasonable to interpret that "limitations" carries an implied "imposed on the wearer", cut only for the sake of space since any reasonable person can infer that meaning. So Rogues and Shadowdancers can use Evasion even if wearing a Mithral "otherwise" Medium armor because it "counts as" light. But wearing the vest over the armor is a limitation imposed on the vest and, since the vest isn't wearing the armor, but rather the other way around, it doesn't benefit from the mithral construction. If you want more info on the unwritten rules, ask BBT; he just loves them.

[Phylotus]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4136.0

This is where I get my distrust of RAW from. It's got good stuff anyway, bu the second half (Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization) is what I am specifically referring to.

[ArmouredMonk13]

I personally would allow it, and am pretty sure it is RAW that you can wear a barbed vest over a mithral breastplate/chainmail/other medium armor.

From a mechanics perspective, mithral medium armor is treated as light armor for all purposes. Or, more specifically,

Mithral Armor wrote:

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.

I view not being able to wear a barbed vest as a restriction to medium armor, though I could see why others would say otherwise.

From a "Common Sense*" perspective, mithral is a metal that is similar to the steel that a normal suit of medium armor is made of [lets say Breastplate, for simplicity], but is stronger and lighter than normal steel that a Breastplate would be made of. So, to get the same strength and defensively sound design on a mithral Breastplate, you would be wearing a Breastplate that is significantly thinner than a steel one, so it has less bulk and a barbed vest could fit over it.

*:

"Common Sense" being Pathfinder Common Sense, which allows for magic, ice-breathing dragons, and Vampire Tarrasque Swarms