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I am making a diabolist. The character begins with 10 levels.
He will be Summoner 1, Diabolist 9.
If I chose the Beast Rider feat, and selected a rhino as the creature, and then gave it +1 intelligence (making it INT 4), can a ranger class be chosen for the rhino?
Can animal companions have pc class levels?
Animal companions don't earn experience. Even familiars, which may have class levels to begin with, don't gain experience.
So I would say, no, they can't.
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Ok, we are looking for armor proficiency now for mounts.
In the druid animal companion section, it lists a series of feats that animal companions can choose from. Some choices of mounts, such as a horse, appear to have light armor proficiency already. However, the rhino has no armor proficiency. This must then be chosen by the player, correct?
Because under cavalier's mount, it says:
A cavalier does not take an armor check penalty on Ride checks while riding his mount. The mount is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A cavalier's mount does not gain the share spells special ability.
My apologies if you know this, but I'd like to clear something up rules-wise.
1) Per the rules, you cannot be a summoner 1/Diabolist 9. The diabolist is a prestige class that require at least 5 ranks in knowledge (planes). On top of this you need have conjured a fiend with lesser planar calling, which is a lvl 5 spell for a summoner, or lvl 6 for a wizard. You can buy a scroll, if you got the funds, though.
The lvl requirement is the main thing, but if your GM allows you to disregard it, it is fine.
2) I don't think Beast Rider works with the diabolist Imp Companion. Imp companion is similar to an animal companion, but it does give you a list of options to choose from. As such, adding something to a non-existing list doesn't work.
That said, allowing you to get the rhino is unproblematic balancewise, so I would do it as a GM.
3) To answer the question: Armor proficiency is on the list of animal companion feats, so you are free to choose those for the rhino, using the feats it get for lvl advancement.
Sorry, just a quick question... how are you going to be a level 1 summoner with 9 levels of diabolist? Are there other class levels included? You need to be a minimum of 5th level (picking up the prestige class at 6th) in order to be a Diabolist.
Ok, we are looking for armor proficiency now for mounts.
In the druid animal companion section, it lists a series of feats that animal companions can choose from. Some choices of mounts, such as a horse, appear to have light armor proficiency already. However, the rhino has no armor proficiency. This must then be chosen by the player, correct?
I don't believe a rhino is a legitimate choice for a cavalier's mount. Cavaliers are strongly restricted in which mounts they can take. The beast rider template replaces the standard cavalier's mount rules, so under RAW the automatic armor proficiency is not granted ... and rhino still isn't on the list, as far as I can tell.
So if it's a druid who's taking this AC, it's not combat trained. If it's a cavalier who's taking this mount, it's not a rhino. Not barring special house ruling by the game master, anyway, and if you're house ruling, you might as well continue to make the house rule that would be the most fun.
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My apologies if you know this, but I'd like to clear something up rules-wise.
1) Per the rules, you cannot be a summoner 1/Diabolist 9. The diabolist is a prestige class that require at least 5 ranks in knowledge (planes). On top of this you need have conjured a fiend with lesser planar calling, which is a lvl 5 spell for a summoner, or lvl 6 for a wizard. You can buy a scroll, if you got the funds, though.
The lvl requirement is the main thing, but if your GM allows you to disregard it, it is fine.2) I don't think Beast Rider works with the diabolist Imp Companion. Imp companion is similar to an animal companion, but it does give you a list of options to choose from. As such, adding something to a non-existing list doesn't work.
That said, allowing you to get the rhino is unproblematic balancewise, so I would do it as a GM.3) To answer the question: Armor proficiency is on the list of animal companion feats, so you are free to choose those for the rhino, using the feats it get for lvl advancement.
1) Yes, I am making the guy beginning at level 10...all the prereqs are fine.
2) I have chosen the Beast Rider Feat, which allows the choosing of a rhino...Ok let me be clear. A PC is creating a new character...beginning with 10 levels. He will be 1 Summoner and 9 Diabolist. Starting with 10 levels...
He is adding a feat: BEAST RIDER.
This feat then allows the choice of rhino, which he will be taking. I know this may not make a lot of sense, but this is what the player wants to do.
1) The prereq's are not fine unless the DM is houseruling
2) The beast rider feat does allow the choosing of a rhino "if" you get the choice. Diabolist does not give a choice, you only get the Imp Companion.
1) The prereq's are not fine unless the DM is houseruling
2) The beast rider feat does allow the choosing of a rhino "if" you get the choice. Diabolist does not give a choice, you only get the Imp Companion.
This is correct.
Additionally for 1): You need to have the prerequisite of a prestige class before you take the first level in it. So a summoner 1 cannot go into the diabolist class. Starting at lvl 10 doesn't change this, since you need to fulfill the requirements before you get the first level of the prestige class.
I completely understand what you're saying, no need to make it anymore clear.
1) It doesn't matter whether you start at level 1 or level 20, you cannot pick up diabolist until you have at least 5 levels in a non-prestige class, unless the DM allows it. So, if the DM is allowing the houserule which is beyond broken, then fine, ignore this part.
2) The prerequisite for Beast Rider is that you have the animal companion or mount class feature, neither of which the summoner or diabolist get anyway. Imp Companion is not Animal Companion.
Just a single question: Are you the GM making the character for a player?
If so, I'll say go right ahead, a make him this way.
If not, talk the the GM about it.
On a seperate note, I think you should consider if you want to start it as a summoner. Full casting classes get a lot better spell, and the prestige class does not progress the main feature of the summoner class (eidolon and summons).
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Perhaps links to the relevant rules would be useful?
Diabolist Prestige Class does require two different skills with 5 ranks before you can start on it. So, you have to have 5 levels before getting it.
Beast Rider Feat requires Animal Companion or Mount class features, neither of which you have. So, it is not a legal feat for this character.
This is the rules forum. You need to go by the rules here. If your GM is going to allow house rules for this character to work, that is between the two of you, but raising those questions in this forum is misplaced.
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I see now... the character must be built beginning with level 1 first...i'm using character building software...so added all 10 levels first and therefore received no errors. The player didn't realize this and I never caught it until you guys pointed it out.
Should have at least 5 summoner levels before having any diabolist levels.
I see now... the character must be built beginning with level 1 first...i'm using character building software...so added all 10 levels first and therefore received no errors. The player didn't realize this and I never caught it until you guys pointed it out.
Should have at least 5 summoner levels before having any diabolist levels.
Absolutely correct! Might I ask, what concept are you going for, there may be better ways to go about creating such a character.
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Perhaps links to the relevant rules would be useful?
Diabolist Prestige Class does require two different skills with 5 ranks before you can start on it. So, you have to have 5 levels before getting it.
Beast Rider Feat requires Animal Companion or Mount class features, neither of which you have. So, it is not a legal feat for this character.
This is the rules forum. You need to go by the rules here. If your GM is going to allow house rules for this character to work, that is between the two of you, but raising those questions in this forum is misplaced.
I'm not house ruling first of all...I'm the GM and am basically auditing my player. He's created a strange concoction of feats and classes. I'm trying to get the rules correct.
Beast Rider does require an animal companion...and the character has this class feature through the summoner class and therefore legal.
A diabolist forms a close bond with a particular imp, similar to a druid's bond with an animal companion. The imp is loyal to the diabolist (though ultimately loyal to Hell). The imp companion's abilities, feats, Hit Dice, and skills advance as the diabolist advances in level (see sidebar). If the imp is slain or the diabolist release it from her service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring a 24-hour ritual to conjure and bind the new imp to herself.
Your statement was a little self-defeating there Cato. You said he gains the animal companion class feature through the summoner class and is therefore legal. This is incorrect. A summoner has the Eidolon class feature. If you meant he gains it though the Diabolist class and is therefore legal, you are also incorrect. Imp Companion is a class feature that works similar to the druid's animal companion, but does not count as the druid's animal companion. Since the Imp is not an "animal" companion, the player does not meet the prerequisites for Beast Rider. Unless of course you're houseruling it to be allowed. I'm assuming that since you're posting in the rules forum you want help rules-wise. If my assumption is correct, then all I'm doing is trying to help you. If you're not wanting to follow the rules, this is best posted in the "Advice" messageboards.
Beast Rider does require an animal companion...and the character has this class feature through the summoner class and therefore legal.
Summoners do not have animal companions; they have eidolons. Different creature, different name. Similarly, diabolists get "imp companions," not animal companions.
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Summoners get a class feature called 'Eidolon'. It is very different from an animal companion. Your player could make a very rhino-looking eidolon, but it is an outsider, and not an animal at all. This does not allow the Beast Rider feat.
A diabolist sure does have an imp companion class feature. It is not related to Beast Rider feat.
I think what the character simply wants is the Leadership feat, with an awakened rhino as the cohort.
I think what the character simply wants is the Leadership feat, with an awakened rhino as the cohort.
I'm inclined to agree, so, Here's a stat-block for an Awakened Rhinoceros.
Awakened Rhinoceros
N Large animal
Init +0; Senses scent; Perception +12
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 9, flat-footed 16 (+7 natural, –1 size)
hp 58 (7d8+28)
Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee gore +8 (2d6+9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks powerful charge (gore, 4d6+12)
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +10; CMD 20 (24 vs. trip)
Feats Endurance, Great Fortitude, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Perception +12
Adding class levels to it should work like normal. Just keep in mind that He's effectively level 7 because of his HD.
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Your statement was a little self-defeating there Cato. You said he gains the animal companion class feature through the summoner class and is therefore legal. This is incorrect. A summoner has the Eidolon class feature. If you meant he gains it though the Diabolist class and is therefore legal, you are also incorrect. Imp Companion is a class feature that works similar to the druid's animal companion, but does not count as the druid's animal companion. Since the Imp is not an "animal" companion, the player does not meet the prerequisites for Beast Rider. Unless of course you're houseruling it to be allowed. I'm assuming that since you're posting in the rules forum you want help rules-wise. If my assumption is correct, then all I'm doing is trying to help you. If you're not wanting to follow the rules, this is best posted in the "Advice" messageboards.
I did mean Diabolist, not Summoner. I was reading the information for Imp companion..which doesn’t seem all that clear and the player is arguing he can choose another companion besides the imp due to the Beast Rider feat, which has a prereq of companion.
That’s what I am trying to clarify…the whole beast rider animal companion thing. People keep telling me I’m house ruling and to switch forums which is why I’m getting defensive. I am not house ruling and trying to find a clear and concise ruling on this situation.
My player is arguing that the imp companion qualifies as the prereq for this.
Your statement was a little self-defeating there Cato. You said he gains the animal companion class feature through the summoner class and is therefore legal. This is incorrect. A summoner has the Eidolon class feature. If you meant he gains it though the Diabolist class and is therefore legal, you are also incorrect. Imp Companion is a class feature that works similar to the druid's animal companion, but does not count as the druid's animal companion. Since the Imp is not an "animal" companion, the player does not meet the prerequisites for Beast Rider. Unless of course you're houseruling it to be allowed. I'm assuming that since you're posting in the rules forum you want help rules-wise. If my assumption is correct, then all I'm doing is trying to help you. If you're not wanting to follow the rules, this is best posted in the "Advice" messageboards.I did mean Diabolist, not Summoner. I was reading the information for Imp companion..which doesn’t seem all that clear and the player is arguing he can choose another companion besides the imp due to the Beast Rider feat, which has a prereq of companion.
That’s what I am trying to clarify…the whole beast rider animal companion thing. People keep telling me I’m house ruling and to switch forums which is why I’m getting defensive. I am not house ruling and trying to find a clear and concise ruling on this situation.
My player is arguing that the imp companion qualifies as the prereq for this.
Your player is wrong. An "imp companion" is not an "animal companion."
Your player is wrong. An "imp companion" is not an "animal companion."Your statement was a little self-defeating there Cato. You said he gains the animal companion class feature through the summoner class and is therefore legal. This is incorrect. A summoner has the Eidolon class feature. If you meant he gains it though the Diabolist class and is therefore legal, you are also incorrect. Imp Companion is a class feature that works similar to the druid's animal companion, but does not count as the druid's animal companion. Since the Imp is not an "animal" companion, the player does not meet the prerequisites for Beast Rider. Unless of course you're houseruling it to be allowed. I'm assuming that since you're posting in the rules forum you want help rules-wise. If my assumption is correct, then all I'm doing is trying to help you. If you're not wanting to follow the rules, this is best posted in the "Advice" messageboards.I did mean Diabolist, not Summoner. I was reading the information for Imp companion..which doesn’t seem all that clear and the player is arguing he can choose another companion besides the imp due to the Beast Rider feat, which has a prereq of companion.
That’s what I am trying to clarify…the whole beast rider animal companion thing. People keep telling me I’m house ruling and to switch forums which is why I’m getting defensive. I am not house ruling and trying to find a clear and concise ruling on this situation.
My player is arguing that the imp companion qualifies as the prereq for this.
+1
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I see, that is the point of contention, it would appear. My player is about to weigh in... it was a lot to unpack as he created him before play. I told him he could simply take away one level of summoner or diabolist and add a druid level for the actual animal companion feature.
The next question he raises is: can he add an actual class to his rhino? Like fighter or ranger?
Prerequisites: Animal companion or mount class feature, character level 7th, half-orc or orc.
Benefit: Select one of the following creature types: elephant, pteranodon, rhinoceros, stegosaurus, or triceratops. Add this creature type to your list of possible animal companions or mounts. When summoning a creature of the selected type to serve as a mount or companion, treat your effective druid level as if it were two levels higher (to a maximum of your character level). If the creature is large enough for you to ride, it gains the combat training general purpose (see Handle Animal) at no cost.
The Diabolist does not get a list of possible animal companions to choose from. He gets an Imp Companion, that's it. The reason it says it's similar to the Animal Companion class feature in that the imp will level with him and he can replace it with another imp.
Just show your player this if he has any problems understanding the rules as they are written.
Okay guys, I am the player. I do not want to make an awakened Rhino.
The feat Beast Rider has these prerequisites:
Animal Companion or Mount class feature
7th level
Orc or Half-Orc
I believe the Diabolist's Imp companion falls under Animal Companions, only the Diabolist cannot choose from the list of Animal Companions and is restricted to the Imp only. By choosing the Feat of Beast Rider, he can now add the other animals listed in the Feat per the description of said Feat.
I see, that is the point of contention, it would appear. My player is about to weigh in... it was a lot to unpack as he created him before play. I told him he could simply take away one level of summoner or diabolist and add a druid level for the actual animal companion feature.
The next question he raises is: can he add an actual class to his rhino? Like fighter or ranger?
Not typically. Animal companions, even with increased intelligence, do not have full human-level sentience, which is why they still need to be "handled" via skills. They also don't gain experience or levels.
That's what the awaken spell is for. It grants full-on sapience including a class and the ability to gain levels.
... which brings us back to what he really wants is simply the Leadership feat. Basically, swap Leadership for Beast Rider and he should be cool.
I see, that is the point of contention, it would appear. My player is about to weigh in... it was a lot to unpack as he created him before play. I told him he could simply take away one level of summoner or diabolist and add a druid level for the actual animal companion feature.
The next question he raises is: can he add an actual class to his rhino? Like fighter or ranger?
No, there is no way to add levels to an animal companion, mount, familiar, or eidolon. They scale with the character they are bound to's level.
If he really wants a rhinoceros with character levels that bad, he should look at getting the leadership feat, and finding one that has been awakened via the spell. That is the only way to add character levels to an animal.
EDIT: I have posted above the stats for an Awakened Rhinoceros. You're welcome to use it.
I see, that is the point of contention, it would appear. My player is about to weigh in... it was a lot to unpack as he created him before play. I told him he could simply take away one level of summoner or diabolist and add a druid level for the actual animal companion feature.
The next question he raises is: can he add an actual class to his rhino? Like fighter or ranger?
He can if it has been awakened. Mundane animals only have HD, not class levels, and can't gain experience.
Keep in mind that awakening basically turns the animal into an NPC. I'd read the Intelligent Animals page before allowing it in your campaign, especially if you would be hesitant to permit Leadership and similar feats.
Okay guys, I am the player. I do not want to make an awakened Rhino.
The feat Beast Rider has these prerequisites:
Animal Companion or Mount class feature
7th level
Orc or Half-OrcI believe the Diabolist's Imp companion falls under Animal Companions, only the Diabolist cannot choose from the list of Animal Companions and is restricted to the Imp only. By choosing the Feat of Beast Rider, he can now add the other animals listed in the Feat per the description of said Feat.
This is where you are incorrect. The Imp Companion states nowhere that it falls under the Animal Companion list. It is a completely separate class feature intended only for the Diabolist. They would have been better off saying the Imp functions like the Familiar class feature from the wizard.
Okay guys, I am the player. I do not want to make an awakened Rhino.
The feat Beast Rider has these prerequisites:
Animal Companion or Mount class feature
7th level
Orc or Half-OrcI believe the Diabolist's Imp companion falls under Animal Companions, only the Diabolist cannot choose from the list of Animal Companions and is restricted to the Imp only.
Shrug. By rules as written, you're wrong. The class feature of the diabolist is "Imp Companion," not "Animal Companion." Furthermore, imps are outsiders and not animals.
By rules as intended, the imp is actually closer in role to a wizard's familiar, but more powerful (imps are technically Improved Familiars), so it uses the more powerful advancement rules for animal companions.
Your game master can make whatever house rules seem appropriate, but there's no support in the rules for the character you want to make.
I'll ask again. What are you trying to accomplish? What's the concept for this character supposed to be? I'm completely lost as to whether or not you want an eidolon, multiple companions, controlling multiple characters, something that's not been tried before. If you give us the concept, the Pathfinder Community is more than happy to help you build the character of your dreams.