So, with the FAQs12 on SLA's it seems that the "a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" line from the magic chapter is taken with more weight than before.
To me, this opens up a few interesting questions, that before the ruling I felt where too ambiguous to even begin finding an answer too, but that now seems to be more graspable. As far as I can see, the answer to all these questions are yes, but I'd like your opinions.
So, the two questions:
1. Do abilities that increase your CL for a certain spell (eg gifted adept trait) work for SLA's of that name?
Example: If I get gifted adept (jump) and am a 4th level rogue taking the major magic talent (jump), does it grant a +10 bonus for 4 minutes or a +20 bonus for 5 minutes?
2. Do abilities that increase your CL for a chosen class (eg magical knack) work if you choose a class granting an SLA?
Example: If the above rogue gets magical knack (rogue) instead of gifted adept (jump), would it boost the CL of jump by 2?
3. If either of the answers to the first questions are "yes", for the purpose of Quicken Spell-like Ability (and similar abilities), do the increased CL work to fulfil the prerequisite?
Example: Assuming answers 1 and/or 2 are yes, the rogue has taken one of the traits above, and dings 9th level. It can cast Jump at CL10. Can it take Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Jump) as it's 9th level feat, allowing it to do it as a swift action 2/day?
I'm interested in your thoughts on this - both on straight RAW, on what you believe to be RAI, and if you believe there are balance issues with this.
Thanks a lot!
1. They are both the same so there is no reason why it should not work.
2. I don't see why this would not work either.
3. As long as you go by the chart for quicken in the bestiary it should work.
Just remember the SLA feats only work on SLA that duplicate spells. As an example fireball as an SLA works. Firesphere(if it existed) would not qualify just because it is similar to fireball.
PS: I don't remember how many times quicken SLA allows you to quicken an SLA, so I was only commenting on qualifying for it.
Hmm, you share my view of it then. Thanks a lot for the input.
Quicken SLA works 3/day but major magic only 2 works 2/day, hence that number :)
Would be interesting to see if there's anyone of the opinion that it does not work, and the reasoning for this.
Otherwise, I can think of a bunch of cool uses for this, especially with low duration spells. Rogue and monk can feel more "gish"y with this.
EDIT: Small side-question, not really a rules question: Is there a list somewhere of means to raise one's caster level? Not necessarily over one's HD.
EDIT: Also, I realize in my first post that the example is weird because magical knack can't increase past character level and I refer to 9th level feat etc. I'm aware of that, it's just an example.
I'll try to answer to my understanding.
So, the two questions:1. Do abilities that increase your CL for a certain spell (eg gifted adept trait) work for SLA's of that name?
Example: If I get gifted adept (jump) and am a 4th level rogue taking the major magic talent (jump), does it grant a +10 bonus for 4 minutes or a +20 bonus for 5 minutes?
I would say no. That's because the trait/feat in question explicitly says "spell". SLA are not spells, as per FAQ, so it shouldn't work.
2. Do abilities that increase your CL for a chosen class (eg magical knack) work if you choose a class granting an SLA?
Example: If the above rogue gets magical knack (rogue) instead of gifted adept (jump), would it boost the CL of jump by 2?
Hmmm. I don't think so. At least, in the case you give as example it seems to me that the rogue is NOT a spellcaster class, so he doesn't have caster levels. Even if you take minor/major magic, those talents says that "caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level", but it doesn't say that your rogue level is considered a spellcasting class. SLAs are not spells, even if they count as requirement.
3. If either of the answers to the first questions are "yes", for the purpose of Quicken Spell-like Ability (and similar abilities), do the increased CL work to fulfil the prerequisite?
Example: Assuming answers 1 and/or 2 are yes, the rogue has taken one of the traits above, and dings 9th level. It can cast Jump at CL10. Can it take Quicken Spell-Like Ability (Jump) as it's 9th level feat, allowing it to do it as a swift action 2/day?
Even allowing the two points above, this still would be a no, in my read, and that's for the same reason why a spell focus or a robe that increase youre caster level by 2 for all your spells don't allow you to satisfy the "spellcaster level X" requirements at level X-1 or X-2.
I'll try to answer to my understanding.
I would say no. That's because the trait/feat in question explicitly says "spell". SLA are not spells, as per FAQ, so it shouldn't work.
So, the two questions:1. Do abilities that increase your CL for a certain spell (eg gifted adept trait) work for SLA's of that name?
Example: If I get gifted adept (jump) and am a 4th level rogue taking the major magic talent (jump), does it grant a +10 bonus for 4 minutes or a +20 bonus for 5 minutes?
Good point. There are certainly conflicting FAQ - they've been back and forth on "a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" and "spell-like abilities are not spells". For example, here it is stated by Buhlman that Augment Summoning works on the Summon Monster SLA even though Augment Summoning specifically mentions "spell". Likewise here, Owen K.C. Stephens (who is not a dev but a contributor - but I would say his points have at least some weight) talks about an explanation of why metamagic doesn't work with SLA's, and says it has nothing to do with them not being considered spells but rather that they lack slots.
I guess on the whole, it's kind of annoying that they can't make up their mind and have one clear ruling, either stating that SLA's are considered spells unless noted otherwise, or that they are not considered spells unless noted otherwise.
When there are so many conflicting rulings related to the case, but none that deals directly with it, what would be the best route to go? I feel going with the most recent has some merit, but it feels weird to just ignore the older ones when nothing has been stated about them being incorrect.
Hmmm. I don't think so. At least, in the case you give as example it seems to me that the rogue is NOT a spellcaster class, so he doesn't have caster levels. Even if you take minor/major magic, those talents says that "caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level", but it doesn't say that your rogue level is considered a spellcasting class. SLAs are not spells, even if they count as requirement.2. Do abilities that increase your CL for a chosen class (eg magical knack) work if you choose a class granting an SLA?
Example: If the above rogue gets magical knack (rogue) instead of gifted adept (jump), would it boost the CL of jump by 2?
Magical Knack doesn't mention spellcasting classes though. The wording reads:
Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.
And caster levels do not really seem to be a class feature, but rather a function of being able to cast a spell; wizard levels do not inherently grant caster levels, rather caster level is defined as:
Caster Level
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.
So it seems caster level isn't so much an inherent ability as, as something you have access to at the moment you cast a spell; not so much "base attack bonus" as "attack modifier".
I know the rules are a bit fuzzy here, but I don't know if wizards have caster levels more inherently than rogues.
Even allowing the two points above, this still would be a no, in my read, and that's for the same reason why a spell focus or a robe that increase youre caster level by 2 for all your spells don't allow you to satisfy the "spellcaster level X" requirements at level X-1 or X-2.
Don't they? I didn't know they didn't, I thought all bonuses that weren't temporary could be used to qualify for requirements. But even so, are items and feats/traits really comparable? Do feats that modify a characteristic never allow you to meet prerequisites?
I understand using Death Knell to qualify for a PRC isn't allowed, but consider: A Fighter 2/Wizard 8 with 11 natural Str and a +2 belt as well as Magical Knack (Fighter), so including the trait and the belt she has a 13 Str and a CL10. We know she qualifies for Power Attack, but doesn't she also qualify for Arcane Blast?
It seems a strange ruling, but for me this is a pretty gray area of the rules.
I guess on the whole, it's kind of annoying that they can't make up their mind and have one clear ruling, either stating that SLA's are considered spells unless noted otherwise, or that they are not considered spells unless noted otherwise.When there are so many conflicting rulings related to the case, but none that deals directly with it, what would be the best route to go? I feel going with the most recent has some merit, but it feels weird to just ignore the older ones when nothing has been stated about them being incorrect.
The newer > older had no meaning, I agree. I try to consider all rules and faqs to give them an organic state. In this case, it seems that's really poor material for that.
So it seems caster level isn't so much an inherent ability as, as something you have access to at the moment you cast a spell; not so much "base attack bonus" as "attack modifier".
I know the rules are a bit fuzzy here, but I don't know if wizards have caster levels more inherently than rogues.
You've a point, but I always feel this way. For me, that trait is for "real" spellcasters... But I admit that it could be viewed the opposite.
Don't they? I didn't know they didn't, I thought all bonuses that weren't temporary could be used to qualify for requirements. But even so, are items and feats/traits really comparable? Do feats that modify a characteristic never allow you to meet prerequisites?
Maybe I overlooked that. Back in 3.5 there was a faq that explicitly said something like "if the requirement is Xth level spellcaster, it means that you must have X levels in a spellcasting class". I took that valid for pf too.