This whole thread is a spoiler.
Shelalu accompanied the PCs to Thistletop, hoping to get a piece of Bruthazmus.
The party opted to take horses and a few canoes, and lots of climbing gear to Thistletop, scale the cliff, and cut the bridge to the land, avoiding any troops that could attack from the rear. Foresight and god stealth won the day, and they took out the sentries before an alarm could be raised. Long story short, they cleared out the upper level of Thistletop and had no trouble taking out Ripnugget and his lackeys (with extra goblins due to a larger party).
Making their way down, they encountered the yeth hounds first (I added 1, since we have 6 players). The 3 yeth hounds were the most challenging fight they've had at Thistletop so far. Panicking 2 of them and Shelalu. Using random fleeing directions, they eventually funnily toward the tentamort cavern, after non-panicked party-members prevent them from fleeing in other directions. The tentamort nearly kills a party member before being killed a few rounds later. Shelalu, panicked and nowhere safe to flee, dives out of the mouth of the cave into the waters below (hoping to swim around to the canoes; she'll recover, regret her fear, and find her way up through the hermit crab's lair to rejoin them for the fight with Nualia).
The yeth hound fight took a long time, and their baying alerted the entire complex to intruders.
The party healed a bit, explored the other cave, explored inch-by-inch every other room and passage, and came to the hallway with the bed chambers. They encounter Bruthazmus arguing with the 4 goblin women from the harem (1 clutching an infant goblin), and he flips out once the PCs arrive, angered that he wasted time arguing with the women.
That is where next game begins.
So, in my game, I added a hallway that connects Nualia's chamber (via secret door) to the stairs adjacent to D15. I also added 1 rogue level and 1 barbarian level to Bruthazmus (his gear is the same, except he has a greataxe instead of a dire flail, being a ranger).
I did this for a few reasons: my players have a 6-member party (2 rangers with goblin favored enemies) plus Shelalu, I removed the shadows from the crypt in the next level (unnecessary fight), the party completely skipped the Thistletop cliff briar warrens with the druid, and I wanted a memorable goblinoid foe at Thistletop.
Bruthazmus is also, sort of, going to fill the role Orik fills in the adventure as written. He's out to save his own skin, and is not overly committed to helping Nualia. He just wants Thistletop as his own once the dust settles.
So, Bruthazmus plans to: open the door of the room he is in for cover, holding two goblin women up as an improvised shield, and fighting defensively until he gets down the hall to Nualia's room and into the secret passage he knows about. This +8 AC boost increases his survivability. He will skirmish if necessary, before fleeing. I then plan to have him brace against the wall for a few rounds (opposed Str checks) before fleeing down the hallway to the next level to rejoin with Nualia for a final stand. His 40 foot move speed should ensure he gets there without dying.
Nualia, Tsuto, Lyrie, and Orik.
Lyrie and Orik will be in D14. There is no awkward love triangle. Altered motives: Lyrie is noncommittal, interested only in her research. Orik is loyal to Nualia's coin. They are both lovers, but Lyrie is mostly using Orik as a distraction. One of the party rangers has a bounty for Orik. Another member has met him in Riddleport as part of his backstory. Roleplay or combat, depending on how things go.
Tsuto waits in the hallway beyond the trap, taunting the PCs to advance. He is the buffer between Nualia, Bruthazmus (hiding in order to ambush), and Nualia's last yeth hound.
So.
Does everyone think this is a fair alteration? Too deadly?
The party has 80-90% of their daily resources, plowed through the upper levels of Thistletop in a single session, and are comprised of the following members:
1-Oread ranger 3, switch hitter. Comp longbow and greatsword. Goblins are fav enemy.
2-Human bard 3, uses whip to trip. Likes to use grease spell. Support.
3-Tengu warpriest 3 (Sandpoint wary of him after the Late Unpleasantness' having a bird-demon-worshipper-serial-killer). Support and melee; fights with a scythe to great effect..
4-Tiefling blade bound magus 3. Uses the shocking grasp trick a lot. Brother of the tiefling ranger.
5-Tiefling trapper ranger 3. Party drunkard and fill-in rogue. Goblins are fave enemy. Lost a leg to the sinspawn, has peg leg and reduced speed now. Brother of the tiefling magus.
6-Human gunslinger 3. From Alkenstar, via Riddleport. Searching for those responsible for his family's downfall. Will tie-in to Ironnriar later in Magnimar.
7-Shelalu Andosana. As written in the AP. Elf fighter 2/ranger 4. Longbow and a vendetta against Bruthazmus. Will probably enter within 1d6+1 rounds after the hallway trap is sprung.
TL:DR:
I got rid of some critters I felt were unnecessary and time-consuming, and beefed up the main NPCs (especially since we have an optimized 6-member party with Shelalu in tow).
With what I did, does everyone think it's a fair challenge? Too difficult? Not difficult enough?
Notice any major pitfalls?
Hard to judge difficulty level not knowing your group's play style or your own for that matter, but it seems a reasonable arrangement. None of the survivors gives a crap about the goblins and is perfectly happy to have used them as cannon fodder, so they are all more than willing to retreat toward Nualia to preserve their own skins.
If I follow the layout, the party will most likely follow Bruthazmus through the secret door/path and into the stairwell between the two levels. If they follow the bugbear, they end up confronting the trap and Tsuto with Lyrie and Orik possibly falling on them from behind. They could have real trouble if they get fouled up in the trap while facing attacks from both sides. But if they check D15 to make sure they won't get surrounded, they'll get Lyrie and Orik alone (this also happens if somehow they don't follow the bugbear immediately) and given your group, that's not going to take long. 6 vs 2 is going to make short work of the two human mercenaries.
If you want an alternate, perhaps more vicious option: Put Bruthazmus, Orik and Lyrie in E2 with Nualia beyond the open door into E3. Everyone in E2 has readied actions to target the first person through the door (assuming they know the PC's are coming.) Tsuto is still at the end of the hallway waiting to activate the trap. Goal: Nualia "flees" down the hall, baiting someone to follow her and Tsuto activates the trap after she's past (readied action again.) Nualia flees when Orik, Bruthazmus and Lyrie have fallen or are about to. She and Tsuto join the Yeth Hound in E4 and fight there, with Tsuto flanking with Nualia and the Hound. Alternatively, they retreat to E6 where there is even more room (since you removed the shadows.) The key is to put more of Nualia's mercs on the field at the same time - too few of them and your PC's just defeat them in detail (to use a military phrase.) Lyrie needs multiple allies because she can't really fight off any concerted efforts to attack her directly and Tsuto needs allies to flank with and room to move.
I do like the idea of playing to their intelligence, and Nualia's clear leadership abilities (she can get the self-centered mercenaries, Tsuto, and Bruthazmus to work in concert, for an extended duration, after all!).
And D6 is a great idea. If the fight is going poorly, I can use Shelalu's deus ex machina re-entry from behind to help out.
I just worry that it'll be too lethal with all of them in one fight (Bruthazmus is a beast now, and the rest are already decent alone). I want Tsuto and Bruthazmus to flank as often as possible (while bickering at each other), since they both have sneak attack.
Perhaps a skirmish with Bruthazmus to soften him (and the PCs?) up a bit before the big skirmish below?
In my mind, Lyrie is going to be the first to flee or barter for her survival. She's already murdered her peers in her past to get ahead, and she's really only here for the research. Orik is loyal to coin. Bruthazmus is out for his own goals. Tsuto is Nualia's smitten lapdog, and the focus of the PCs' ire, presently.
I had originally devised this to allow non-combat solutions. But now I'm doubting it.
Maybe have a skirmish-parley in D15 (I could enlarge D15's room size) with Bruthazmus, Lyrie, and Orik. Depending on how things go, the party may end up neutralizing one or two of them by letting them go. If not, Bruthazmus holds them off while Orik and Lyrie flee to Tsuto and Nualia to enact their hold-out tactics. Then Bruthazmus either follows them or flees depending on how he's faring.
Thoughts?
Allow non-combat solutions. Roleplaying is superior to rolling dice. And having a chance to let diplomacy reign supreme is handy.
I do like the idea of playing to their intelligence, and Nualia's clear leadership abilities (she can get the self-centered mercenaries, Tsuto, and Bruthazmus to work in concert, for an extended duration, after all!).
And D6 is a great idea. If the fight is going poorly, I can use Shelalu's deus ex machina re-entry from behind to help out.
I just worry that it'll be too lethal with all of them in one fight (Bruthazmus is a beast now, and the rest are already decent alone). I want Tsuto and Bruthazmus to flank as often as possible (while bickering at each other), since they both have sneak attack.
Perhaps a skirmish with Bruthazmus to soften him (and the PCs?) up a bit before the big skirmish below?
In my mind, Lyrie is going to be the first to flee or barter for her survival. She's already murdered her peers in her past to get ahead, and she's really only here for the research. Orik is loyal to coin. Bruthazmus is out for his own goals. Tsuto is Nualia's smitten lapdog, and the focus of the PCs' ire, presently.
I had originally devised this to allow non-combat solutions. But now I'm doubting it.
Maybe have a skirmish-parley in D15 (I could enlarge D15's room size) with Bruthazmus, Lyrie, and Orik. Depending on how things go, the party may end up neutralizing one or two of them by letting them go. If not, Bruthazmus holds them off while Orik and Lyrie flee to Tsuto and Nualia to enact their hold-out tactics. Then Bruthazmus either follows them or flees depending on how he's faring.
Thoughts?
First tip in these situations: trust your gut. If you suspect something might be too tough, take that seriously.
Second tip: the more of Nualia's survivors that fight together, the more dangerous the encounter. 3 or 4 of them will be notably more difficult than 1 or 2. Your original plan of grouping them 1 or 2 at time is safer and if you make it plausible for other groups to join in quickly you can scale up the difficulty if needed. The possible willingness of some of the NPC's to surrender is another way to ease unexpected challenge levels. The NPC doesn't know half the party has less than 5 hp left; they only know they're getting their butt kicked and none of their enemies are down.
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With 6 players, you'll want to do some beefing up anyway to properly challenge them (I'm also guessing they're 20-pt buy and seasoned players?).
I ran Bruthazmus with his harem, and the players enjoyed seeing that dynamic. We had an elf and Bruthazmus was almost able to murder the elf while the harem served as blockers to the melee. This major fight happened in D1/D2 when the party was in D1. If they don't open the door to D2 and aren't quiet, Bruthazmus and company can open the door and initiate.
Orik heard what was going on, came down the hallway and was a late add to the fight. I believe I ended up having the pair of yeth hounds from the temple join the foray as well.
With a gunslinger going BANG BANG, your group would potentially be pulling other rooms into an existing fight often.
The yeth hounds are one of the scariest foes on this level, causing the panicked condition to a good number of the party, as there's often a 50/50 shot per individual of them fleeing for the bulk of the fight. I definitely wouldn't skip using the yeth hounds.
Lyrie ended up as a pure roleplay encounter as the party found her alone in D14.
With 6 players, I'd almost advise to have Shalelu hang back some and watch the stairs down to warn them if a goblin patrol returns. The players don't need the extra help that much and Shalelu has the potential to rob them of some of their own glory when she's there as well as the overall slowing of the game to add another acting character. Always remember a goblin patrol could return at any time, and seeing their brethren murdered, they might assume the lower levels have been abandoned and come down looking for loot. Thus, any fight that you need to spontaneously beef up can have a half-dozen goblins added with perhaps a "lead" goblin warchanter, alchemist, warrior - whatever you think fits.
The fight with Nualia is fairly hard as written because the environment favors her, especially if the party trigger the trap in E3, which is fairly deadly. As a magic trap, it requires trapfinding to discover (I run with the rule that magic traps include Magic Aura so a simple Detect Magic doesn't find them). As the trap is triggered, Nualia is effectively blocked by the portcullis as she opens the door from E4 and she can begin monologuing to those in the hallway. The yeth hound with her is fairly important to this fight, and I had the doors to E5 open and the yeth hound move into that hallway when she was talking. Because of the tight confines, only a single melee character can engage Nualia, who I then had take a 5ft step back into E4 and set up a flank with the yeth hound on the brave melee. With the hard corners, this means no ranged attacks on either from the bulk of the party. With a member or two panicked from the yeth hound, it takes a brave Acrobatics check to really engage her.
I believe while running her, she did crit and do something like 25 damage, which is enough to make most 3rd level front-liners drop or get real nervous (assuming you're taking 1/2 +1 HP per level).
Additionally, you mentioned pulling the 3 shadows from the temple, but that's probably the single most challenging fight in all of Thisletop, so I really recommend running those. The party I ran had to flee from that fight and come back with holy water and use the "sprinkling" trick, and even then it was a nail-biter. I personally enjoy running shadows at the low levels, since they are great for seasoning adventures.... just add a little pepper and salt, and perfect!
Thanks for all the feedback everyone!
Since the party already cut the bridge (isolating Thistletop island, proper), and killed every goblin on the upper level, and they are heading toward Nualia & co. quickly, there is little chance of rearguard reinforcements.
However, I hadn't considered goblin reinforcements to beef up the combat (minor nuisances really). I could easily have 6 goblin warriors and 1-2 goblin commandos stationed in E2, awaiting commands.
As for party composition, I would say they are all pretty optimized (yes to the 20-point builds), but only half of them are seasoned players.
I *really* do not want the shadows at all. They are not thematically appropriate to me, and feel like a tack-on/afterthought. They already had the random tentamort fight, which I feel serves the same function, and they'll likely have to fight the hermit crab when Shelalu tells them about al the treasure to be had in the cavern. Bruthazmus (rgr 1/rog 1/bar 1) with around 80 hp while raging, coordinated tactics with the major villains, and Lyrie rebuild as a magus should work.
I am not sure, though, whether to break off Lyrie and Orik from the main fight for role-play purposes. Maybe give them 2-3 goblin warriors at their command too, and enlarge D15 to accommodate more combatants?
Shelalu is currently in the water, and making her way around the island looking for a quick way back to the party after the yeth hounds panicked her. She is my deus ex machine card if the fight goes poorly, arriving from E7 to join the fray if needed. If the party is doing well without help, she'll show up AFTER the fight with Nualia. This is just my secret player-helping GM tool for this scenario.
I'll let everyone know how it goes (next game is Tuesday).
So, to sum-up, here's what I'm doing:
Brief skirmish/roleplay with Bruthazmus (and the remaining goblin harem members) to build his personality and motives. Chase scene down the added secret corridor to the stairwell (which will open into an enlarged D15.
In D15, Bruthazmus barks some orders to Lyrie and Orik, and the goblins present. Half the goblins stay with the longshanks, the other half flee after Bruthazmus, to E2.
In D15, the party skirmishes with Orik and Lyrie, while role-play opportunities abound, possibly circumnavigating this fight and earning a neutral ally. Party ranger has to decide whether to subdue Orik for his bounty or not.
E2: Goblins skirmish with PCs, Tsuto near entrance to hallway gives brief monologue and taunts, runs back through the trap toward Nualia & Bruthazmus (in an enlarged E4).
Trap is sprung on first PC through. Then yeth hound bays (possibly panicking PCs). Then NPCs attempt to soften up/kill PC in trap, and any remaining after fear.
Bruthazmus hides (amazing stealth bonus) until PCs enter room, then cuts off their escape, if possible. Tsuto and Bruthazmus flank as much as possible (with yeth hound too). Nualia does her thing. If it gets too bad for the party, Shelalu arrives from E5 to help out (with slightly lowered hp from her fall).
Sound reasonable?
I may spring trap on second PC, to split the party...
You do that, you will end up with two dead PCs. The first being the one caught in the trap. The second being the one on the other side of the trap.
By the way, the description of the hallway has an obvious clue that there is a trap there - it's the one patch of floor that is clean of dust compared to the rest. If you do away with that and have the entire floor clean, then you're obviously trying to kill a character, seeing that the trap is quite well known in the Player Obits and has been mentioned as a part of one Total Party Kill at least.
Fair. I'll only use it on the first PC not paying attention.
I'll describe the scene in detail, and make sure the bare spot is mentioned. Tsuto's taunting behavior should help clue them in, too. But I'm not doing more to hold their hands.
Well, the PCs saw the trap, and avoided it (even used it to their advantage later to block their retreat).
But.
Nualia + yeth hound + Tsuto + Bruthazmus all in one room was too much for them.
Combined with uncharacteristically bad planning at first (a ranger walks right into the room, solo, and gets knocked unconscious by Bruthazmus on round 1).
Bruthazmus was beastly. Dropped 2 PCs. Everyone was about to flee, and the Gunslinger decided to pull a narrative gem out of his pocket, and spent 2 Hero Points to accomplish it.
He parleyed with a believable lie, and the party was allowed to leave with their wounded, if he stayed and explained himself to Nualia.
Nualia heard him out, monologued, then had Bruthazmus throw him down the "crab hole."
(remember, I took out the Shadows of this dungeon! and only Nualia, Bruthazmus, Lyrie, and Tsuto know of the hermit crab lair.)
Before being thrown in, Gunslinger asks the bugbear for a cigarette, and gave him his pack (full of Lyrie's research notes from above...and a powder keg). Remaining grit points are spent, Bruthazmus takes a lot of damage (gunslinger very little), and he flees back through the dungeon not wanting to risk the monstrous crab.
He sneaks past Tsuto and the yeth hound, then intentionally triggers the trap (by stepping on it and making his saving throw), giving him 2 rounds of safety.
He gets to the top of Thistletop, with Tsuto and Bruthazmus more or less on his heels, only to find the party climbing down the cliff face the way they arrived, with Grogmurt and a band of goblins across the chasm taking impotent pot-shots at the party (then the warpriest uses a downpour spell to give them all cover a few rounds while they skirmish with Tsuto and Bruthazmus).
Bruthazmus puts up a hell of a fight, but ends up dying. Tsuto is knocked unconscious and taken prisoner. Shelalu arrives, deus ex machine, atop the Thistletop battlements (having fled in panic from the yeth hounds earlier), picking off goblins as the party fled, saying she'd rejoin them at Sandpoint as soon as she could.
Party escapes, skin of their teeth. I was liberal with Hero Points, but I felt it was in good narrative fun.
Thoughts?
Oh, and they captured Orik (and let Lyrie flee with her research and a number of artifacts), after a brief skirmish and a lot of deliberations.
When the party gets back, I plan to have Grogmurt and the remaining goblins defending Thistletop with guerrilla tactics. Lyrie has changed her mind, and has allied with Grogmurt (possibly because he forced her hand by not allowing her to escape?).
The party has already stated they are going to wait a day or two before returning, to secure a dozen guards to accompany them to help with the goblins, while they delve back into Thistletop and go after Nualia.
Hemlock will join them this time (one player cannot make next week), while Shelalu will help lead the soldiers above against what is left of Grogmurt's followers.
When they get below, they will find that the golden pillar is opened, and will encounter the yeth hound guarding it, Nualia and Malfeshnekor beyond having just come to some sort of accord.
Looking over greater brashest stats again... I may scratch having him allied with Nualia. Too tough.
*barghest. Stupid autocorrect.