Bottled ooze question.

[tsuruki]

Given that my google Fu did not reveal this, I ask you, the expert community on such trivial matters.

The alchemists bottled ooze discover (UM) lets you throw oozes at people.

The questions are:
A) The oozes you can make depends on a ratio of CR = Extract level. Since this is measured in CR, can you make stuff like "Half dragon" oozes, or more importantly, give them the advanced or Giant simple templates?
B) This ability seems weak, at 16th level im supposed to enjoy spending my round conjuring CR 6 minions? Similarly leveled casters can conjure CR 11 creatures, and im not talking full on planar allies, just summon monster. This ability however is only one standard action cast, and the ooze gets an attack in the round its conjured, but im thinking that attack is worth squat if its never going to hit anything. How would you come up with a way to balance this ability better?
Perhaps give the extracts a variable CR range like:
Lvl 1: CR 1.
Lvl 2: Cr 2.
Lvl 3: Cr 3.
Lvl 4: Cr 4-5.
Lvl 5: Cr 6-7.
Lvl 6: Cr 8.

If you dont think this ability needs a buff, why? My "against" argument is "Its just one discovery, and one discovery isnt suposed to be unbeleivably relably effective throughout a character career, if the Discovery were as good as summon monster what would ever stop you from not spending every round throwing oozes at people?".
Its a valid point, but doesnt quite validate making the discovery underpowered.

Also, on a more theoretical note, do you have any strong opinions about cool uses of this ability? What oozes are your favoritres and why? Heres my theories:

Ive noted the cool factor of battlefield control with Gelatinous cubes (Beasty 1). They can move enemies by having them succeed on reflex saves against their engulf, so its a win win ability for a strategic alchemist (Either the creature is engulfed in a deadly jelly monster, or its moved in the direction away from the jelly, hopefully into the jaws of your local beatstick fighter).

Ochre jellies gotta be pretty reliable battle field control for their strong grapple. Its my favorite use of this ability, but only in theory, at Cr 5 its kinda high cost for what might be rather inefficient effects at that APL (You get 5th level extracts at level 13, average monster AC at that level is 28 which makes the Jelly´s slam attack bonus of +5 seem pretty meagre).

Amoeba's and their swarm type (Beasty 2) are in my opinion probably the very best use of this ability for its effects per the cost. Swarms are OP and the ability to cover your foes in them is good.

Slithering trackers get 2 slams and the potential to paralise their victim, that seems REALLY useful, at the level you get it though I highly doubt it can hit anything at only +7 to hit (verus an average monster ac of 24 at the character level you unlock 4th level extracts).

Hungry flesh (bestiary 4) is my favorite "non combat" application of this ability. Nowhere does it say that your oozes cant make "spawn", imagine flying over a settlement of an enemy species, peppering it with these horrible things, a few hours later the ill prepared settlement has become a nightmare of oozing flesh horrors!

[Darthslash]

You have the same interest at heart as me Tsuruki. I have been planning on making an Alchemist and making him an 'Ooze Master'. It just sounds freaking wicked fun to play, and I love oozes as monsters.

But I can see where your coming from, at higher levels it does seem kind of weak, but I don't think it was created to be used as a focused specialists class. (Oozes only)

Maby we can start a petition to have them create an Alchemist specialist class focused on Oozes.

Is there a Swarm template?

Did you consider using 'Augment Summoning' to buff the oozes with +4 Str, +4 Con? It might increase some of there save DC's Vs. their special abilities.

[Rhatahema]

Bottled Ooze is an awesome idea, but it's a pretty terrible discovery. The low CR restriction is bad. Worse, you don't control the ooze, and can only throw it out to a range of 30ft. It's nice that you decide when and where the ooze appears, but it makes the tactical applications pretty limited. At worst, you've just added another monster to the encounter (that you won't get XP for).

My argument against a buff is only that the discovery needs a revision first. Pathfinder deliberately revised all 3.5 abilities that allowed you to become a monster for a reason. Writers don't intend for their monsters to be used by the players, so you can end up with some unbalanced options (such creatures that create spawn). Which is probably why they were so conservative with the CR.

I'd change the range to 20ft, but treat it as a thrown weapon (5 range increments), let the alchemist mentally compel the ooze as a move action, and make a specific list of oozes for each extract level. Though if you were feeling more ambitious, you could homebrew an ooze that scales with level, and even give it a list selectable abilities (similar to an eidolon).

[tsuruki]

Rhatahema wrote:

I'd change the range to 20ft, but treat it as a thrown weapon (5 range increments), let the alchemist mentally compel the ooze as a move action, and make a specific list of oozes for each extract level. Though if you were feeling more ambitious, you could homebrew an ooze that scales with level, and even give it a list selectable abilities (similar to an eidolon).

That last idea is especially cool, but far and wide too much work for just one simple discovery :S.

Youre also probably right with the CR and players not being supposed to have controllable oozes. All the effects that put oozes under player control in 3.5 were under some limitation or impediment, such as the one spell that let you control Black puddings, but only black puddings. A effect that grants you access to every type of ooze in the game might just be uncontrollably strong, every ooze type I mentioned is a sorta "Save or suck" effect canned in a blobby minion, even a CR1 Amoeba can be incredibly useful if it manages to snag a vulnerable caster type enemy in a grapple.