Eliminating Touch Attacks

[kyrt-ryder]

One thing that's bothered me for a long time, is the prevalence of touch attacks, and how that complicates Armor Class.

I'm contemplating the idea of replacing Touch Attacks with reflex saves, and wanted to run the idea by the forum, see what sort of discussion it generates.

[rainzax]

are you going to run:

1d20+x vs 1d20+y

1d20+x vs 10+y

or 10+x vs 1d20+y

where x is the 'attacker' and y is the 'defender'?

if the first, there is no real precedence in the rules for it.
if the second, then all you are really doing is trading one complication for another (a 'touch AC' calculated slightly differently).
if the third, then using a touch attack against someone will feel like using a spell against them (save against this! ha ha).

[williamoak]

Other than the ocasional gunslinger issue, I've never seen much problems with touch attacks. Any other specific example?

Also, when you say a reflex saves, reflex save against what? Because saves progress MUCH slower than AC.

[kyrt-ryder]

rainzax wrote:

are you going to run:

or 10+x vs 1d20+y

where x is the 'attacker' and y is the 'defender'?

if the third, then using a touch attack against someone will feel like using a spell against them (save against this! ha ha).

Bingo. In the case of spells its spell DC, in the case of non-caster touch attacks (which are pretty rare, especially since I use advanced firearms with easy reloads and not targeting touch AC) it would probably default to 10+1/2 BAB+Attack-roll-stat modifier

Though it occurs to me this would kind of screw the use of things like Snowball and Shocking Grasp (except for Magi who use normal attack rolls to deliver it) at mid levels.

[Kelarith]

Eliminating touch attacks severely limits the effectiveness of mages. Touch attacks are pretty much nothing more than AC without the benefit of armor, which makes sense, considering the spells would transfer through. A touch attack is just that, you simply have to touch the target, rather than having to shove a blade, hammer, or what have you through the protection. Touch attacks already take into account dexterity, so the reflex is already taken into account. Also, how would you justify reflex saves in a case (flat footed, surprise, etc) where someone wouldn't have the benefit of dexterity?