Lets see what the russian run ballot box shows after the russian invasion.
After the russian INVASION?
Something around zero.No-one likes to be invaded.
Lets see what the russian run ballot box shows after the russian invasion.After the russian INVASION?
Something around zero.
No-one likes to be invaded.
Tell that to Crimea.
Depends who's counting the votes.
Two words:international observers(and yes,they were in crimea).You can add or substract a few percents stealthily,but no more than that.People still need to be mostly on your side,which will never happen in case of an invasion.
Also,Crimea was not invaded.That's kinda the point.
No actual election monitoring agencies were involved in the Crimean referendum. Just a handful of mostly European politicians with agendas.
Of course,actual election monitoring agencies don't have any goals exept watching for "democracy".
Point is,we don't have iron curtain anymore.Anything can and will become public.Especially voting under the barrel of a gun...which is actually normal for Ukrainian parliament this days.Of course,nobody cares:)
Lets see what the russian run ballot box shows after the russian invasion.After the russian INVASION?
Something around zero.
No-one likes to be invaded.
96% of crimeans liked it apparently, I'm sure the ukranians will have a similar approval rating.
96% of crimeans liked it apparently, I'm sure the ukranians will have a similar approval rating.
That was not an invasion.At best it qualifies as special operation.Extremely limited in scale,no shots fired,no resistance,no-one even got solid proof it was russians.
On the other hand,reunification if southeast ukraine ATM requires actual invasion.You know,actual war.Which is stupid because as of now,Russians have no casus belly.That thing is really important.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
no-one even got solid proof it was russians.
You're lying.
You're not just wrong, you're not deluded, you're lying.Knock it off. No one can be that willfully blind.
They have russian military uniforms with the patches taken off
They have russian issue tanks
They showed up in russian military vehicles with russian license plates
They have the troops ON CAMERA talking to reporters and saying they're from russia.
No one but russia has that many troops anywhere near by.
Under what epistemic nihlism definition of solid proof is this not solid proof?
They have russian military uniforms with the patches taken off
I can buy that in nearest military store.I also can,with a little search,buy them with a substantial discount if i don't ask any questions.
They have russian issue tanks
Tanks were used?
Don't matter.T-80 and T-72 widely available to anyone who has the money,and has been for the last 20 years.You can buy t-72 for like 50k $.
They showed up in russian military vehicles with russian license plates
Leasing.Or just A LOT of money.Or friends in right places.
They have the troops ON CAMERA talking to reporters and saying they're from russia.
Even taking it as a face value,which i don't(mass media have a reputation for falcification),you can be from russia and don't be a part of any regular military.For example,i can easily cosplay as one of polite men.You can easily self-organize volunteer force.
No one but russia has that many troops anywhere near by.
Are you kidding me?Ukraine had 700k troops 20 years ago.It has 150?k now.
Did the rest 550k just died?
I can buy that in nearest military store.
Do they have 20,000 of them in stock?
Tanks were used?
YES.
Leasing.Or just A LOT of money.Or friends in right places.
Yes. Like say the kremlin.
They have the troops ON CAMERA talking to reporters and saying they're from russia.Even taking it as a face value,which i don't(mass media have a reputation for falcification),you can be from russia and don't be a part of any regular military.For example,i can easily cosplay as one of polite men.You can easily self-organize volunteer force.Horsepucky. You couldn't cosplay 10,000 people in girl scout uniforms without the russian governments permission, much less military.
[QUOTE
Are you kidding me?Ukraine had 700k troops 20 years ago.It has 150?k now.
Did the rest 550k just died?
So the ukraine is.. invading itself?
If I was on the fence about any aspect of the invasion of crimea, you just pushed me off. I will not deign to compare your arguments to a perfectly serviceable pile of fertilizer. If you can deny such easy and obvious facts, its clear nothing you say can be trusted.
Do they have 20,000 of them in stock?
Check your sources.Initial stages of operation were carried out by hundreds at most.My sources actually were on the scene)
And YES,THEY HAVE!20.000 uniforms,if needed,is only two trucks.
Yes. Like say the kremlin.
Yep.Doesn't make it russian invasion.Also,no proof of that either.
You couldn't cosplay 10,000 people in girl scout uniforms without the russian governments permission, much less military.
And why russians should care?These girlscouts didn't blockade russian bases:)
So the ukraine is.. invading itself?
Did words coup d'etat mean anything to you?
If those guys in Kiev can do it,why someone else can't?OF COURSE it was sponsored from outside.Obviously.
But,on the other hand,so is this Maidan thingy.
Difference is,of course,in execution.
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maccas sacks Crimean workers and offers them jobs in ukrainian macdonalds
Looks like macdonalds will be charged with conspiracy to economic warfare.
In other news:
I'm pretty sure i've seen that somewhere
I just love how many people actually read Lenin and Stalin on revolutions.
Not some silly arab spring.First and foremost-organize soviets,intercept control of key buildings,mass media,so on.
Classy.
Sadly,they will be most likely supressed,if some unnamed polite people in unmarked uniforms will not appear.Oh well.Nice try,at least.
Did i mention what TASS stands for?
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Oh. That's bad. This has the potential to get ugly.
Not unless Ukraine decides to violently supress the revolt.
Question is...where's the loyalty of local army lie?Because,you know,it's border province.Should be A LOT stationed there.
Also,Donetsk region is about 10% population and something like 20% GDP of Ukraine.
Unlike Crimea,this is vitally important province.Revolt needs to be supressed fast,or else.
Oh well.That's what you get for trying to sell modern ICBM technology to...someone.
Really it's more of a protest than a revolt. From what I could tell this morning, a small group has seized some government buildings and declared themselves the government of a new nation. It's not at all clear how much support they really have.
A few thousands,well-equipped,and,from what i saw,armed,and that's only front-liners.Counts as a rebellion in Total War.
But pretty much whatever happens, it's a pretext Putin can use to grab another chunk of Ukraine.
Yep.If public support on rebel's side,that would be stupid not to.
If they don't have that support,on the other hand...This time Ukraine really can't let him get away with it.
If they don't supress the revolt,there's really nothing they can do.
they certainly can't stop it militarily by themselves.
Which means no military action.
Unless Putin isn't looking for an excuse. Then this can be shut down without much bother.
I don't know.DPR is quite a pie.Worth more than any possible sanctions.
While i'm here:
All power to the soviets!
God Ukraine is a failed state.
Yep, Putin's plan and meddling seems to have succeeded.
Yep, Putin's plan and meddling seems to have succeeded.While i'm here:
All power to the soviets!
God Ukraine is a failed state.
well, to be fair, putin wasnt the one encouraging a neonazi coup.
Well, Kiev is also stating this is one that's linked to the Russians, and if you look back at the thread, we were warned and I posted it here, it was thought an invasion (or subterfugion, whatever you want to call it) was coming, and probably has Russian support at the border should the Ukraine try anything.
So think about it, I already warned that it was coming in less than a week...and of course those who are either listening solely to Russian Propaganda or are spreading...claimed it was not.
And here we are, with the same invasion type stance and occurance happening.
It makes me very nervous as this act may not give the Ukraine much room except TO go to war. Not sure what actions they'll take next, or if it's going to drag the rest of the region with them.
It's sad that Russia can't even wait until May...
And that they'd rather spread fear on the border with subgroups and operatives than wait and see what the nation elects and chooses.
If they kick them out of the buildings they're occupying, Russia can claim that as an excuse to protect ethnic Russians. Once Russian troops are in, they won't leave.
Most likely not.You need some real shooting for that.Kiev-style.
As for history....afaik,most of what is now southeast Ukraine was various provinces until ...errr...1923?Then it was all consolidated to Ukrainian Soviet Republic.So it was,too,attached to Ukraine during Soviet era.Just 30 years earlier.
Oh,well.Talking about history,let's also remember who founded Donetsk.
It was John Hughes.No,not that one
What REALLY makes Crimea different is 75% of total vote-capable population(or was it total population?) in favor of reunification,as opposed to idkhowmany in southeast.
Actually as far as votes, that's why the entire Crimea thing is suspect. Crimea should only have had a little over 50-60%.
On the otherhand, those areas that just had the similar situation start up...probably MUCH heavier support which is why it was odd Russia didn't go after those instead if it were being truthful, instead of a port which they had military interests in.
Now it's suspected the reason they were going after those territories is that they want land connections.
Of course putin could over play his hand..the eu is weak..god knows with obama destroying this country we're weak..but if the ukrane turns into a true blood bath..and no one will help....remember all those pipelines for energy that run right through that country are soft targets..a few dudes with bombs cut off the energy to to eu which backlashs right on putin.
shhh plus the suite case bombs reagan smuggled into moscow just might change a few minds
shhh plus the suite case bombs reagan smuggled into moscow just might change a few minds
I love conspiracy theories as much as the next guy,but nuclear weapons do not work that way.
probably MUCH heavier support
On the contrary,it is substantially less there.For now.
When rebels will have 100.000 per city-then it will be time.Right now....i think not.On the other hand,now it's time to rake in the mad dollarz selling natural gas to Ukraine at double price!
nukes smooks dirty, dirty, bombs or the rtx nutron sphere..these are voice activated by triger words...both spoken and satelite transmited..manual activation is more complicated it must be opened and made flat, turning it into a circuit based map..the right combination can explode the sphere or send a signal to other spheres..if spheres are activated in combination they automaticlly wake up a satelite over anartica (as a side note it was placed over that location after spys in world war two followed hilters explorers that were trying to find the hollow earth theory that hilter believed in so much...thats another story for another day)only two men know the proper code to destroy a combination of spheres or the daisy chain as termed by kennedy..there are only 6 links in the chains...each link in a safe location moscow being one..thank god the president is not one of the people refered to a the dyson twins...
of course i could be completely full of shit..but you never truely know do you
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Oh dear....the above sounds like a paranoia game....
I feel safe in asserting that we do.
of course i could be completely full of s%&$..but you never truely know do you
Ha!I remember watching in some...errr...ukrainian...tv channel that Ukraine still has 4 hoarded nuke-tipped x-55 missiles and should use it to stop Russians.
I can't even begin to describe on how many levels this is stupid and impossible.And this is mass media!)
Yeah, it's an option. They could threaten to launch on Russia, but then they'd give a real good reason for further invasion by Russia to stop the launch.
Is it stupid and impossible that they might still have them? Or that they might use them?
Both.Nuclear weapons do not work that way and ukraine have no platform to launch from.Also using that specific missile against russia is pointless.
What they CAN do is sell ICBM tech,which,IMO,is far more dangerous.Yeah, it's an option. They could threaten to launch on Russia, but then they'd give a real good reason for further invasion by Russia to stop the launch.
You do not invade to stop the launch in that case.You send spec-ops team to neutralize either a launch platform or a launch base.Because if you invade,you provoke the launch.It's not actually the problem,but why risk?
And i heard,on the same channels,of plans to use nuclear blackmail via nuclear power plants.Which is also something that can theoretically be done,but nobody is that stupid.But who knows?They already sold X-55s in the past to...paying customers(that's kinda illegal).
And now there are different people in power.
Oh, if its only a handful of foreign military troops on your soil trying to diable the only means of defense you have left, its not an invasion. Technically.
Oh, if its only a handful of foreign military troops on your soil trying to diable the only means of defense you have left, its not an invasion. Technically.
Invasion has a little different goals.And methods.Spec-ops in russian doctrine are normally used to support military operations,but not always.
If airbase on which these theoretical missiles are stationed is somewhere in the west,invasion is not cost-effective.Non-nuclear ballistic missile strike is,but poland panics-chapter 5-WW3.
In Georgia,OTOH,which is not a NATO member,these were fair game.
Too bad there isn't a NATO missile defense system in Poland by now. It could shoot them down.
Irony.
Too bad there isn't a NATO missile defense system in Poland by now. It could shoot them down.
Irony.
But it's still attack on NATO member,if only perceived,and still chapter 5.
Also,i have reasonable doubts of capability of AEGIS AMS against modern russian TBMs.Also,imagine reaction of said russians,if you launch to take out ukrainian nuclear capability and some poland shoots down your missiles...and then ukrainian launch.This is why AEGIS,in it's ABM role,sucks.
It can't get the job done half reliably,but it can provoke just as well as a real ABM system.
Supression time!
Somewhere near Donetsk
My money is on 02.00 local time.
Things definitely seem like they are rising towards larger conflict...
Last I saw, the interior minister for the junta added 24 more hours to his previous ultimatum for the protestors in SE Ukraine to submit.
In Kharkiv (largest city in SE and 2nd in Ukraine), the junta was successful in storming the regional government building that protestors were occupying, dubbing it an "anti-terror" operation... Arresting around 60 activists whom they took to Kiev, like they have been doing with all political prisoners. They later seem to have admitted that all of the arrestees were Ukrainian citizens, contrary to propaganda of Russian infiltrators, etc. Apparently the local Kharkiv police were on friendly terms with protestors and refused to follow orders against them, necessitating the use of coup-loyal forces brought in from Poltava and Kiev/West Ukraine. The junta later announced that the "disloyal" police would be fired.
Perhaps it's worth pointing out, since it is not the norm in many countries, but AFAIK all Ukrainian police forces are directly under Kiev's command (legally), there is no local or regional forces as such... Though as in this case, the actual police officers also have their loyalties to their own communities. I've seen YouTube videos of police officers in SE Ukrainian areas (specifically, Dnipropetrovsk) wearing the orange and black ribbons symbolic of WWII victory over fascism, which in the present context de facto signify opposition to the Kiev junta seen as containing fascists, as well as pro-Russian sentiments.
So far the popular occupations of Lugansk and Donetsk continue to hold. The local police there also seem to have joined the side of protestors, as this picture shows (cute girl too). Here is a video showing local roadblocks outside of Donetsk, with local police participating, presumably aiming to prevent the entry of Right Sector thugs, as well as police or military forces loyal to the junta. I'm not clear on the exact forces the Kiev junta is sending to the area, but it seems they have activated newly formed National Guard units (largely formed from the aggressive Maidan militants who were willing to serve the junta). If so, the group which just weeks ago was occupying government buildings and "seizing power" may soon be assaulting other people accused of doing the exact same (only difference being there was still a legitimate government the first time around). Besides junta-loyal police units from West and Central Ukraine being sent to SE Ukrainian regions, there is plenty of video of army vehicles being moved into the area (along with videos of locals trying to stop them), but it isn't clear if the junta intends to use those against protestors (/terrorists/separatists), or even whether they are being operated by military troops or the newly formed National Guard units. The Ukrainian military so far has stayed out of the political conflict, disobeying orders to attack other Ukrainians (by both Yanukovych and the junta), but the National Guard is essentially a creation of the junta and should be much more loyal to it.
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More broadly in Ukraine,
Right Sector was forced by junta loyal police to leave the downtown hotel they had been occupying an using as their headquarters since Maidan. They were supposed to have given up their weapons (the coup parliament in fact voted to disarm them), but from the video I saw they were in fact leaving the hotel carrying their gun cases. In a video I saw, one of the leaving Right Sector thugs suggested they were headed to a training camp, which might indicate that at least some of them could be integrating with the newly formed National Guard (loyal to the junta). This all in the context of one of Right Sector's prominent (and violent) members (known as "Sashko Bilyi") being killed after junta-loyal police sought to arrest him, and in general the coup regime turning against Right Sector, the more uncontrollable/ anarchist "brownshirt" faction becoming more of a political liability, and indeed threat to the regime itself.
Demonstrating the coup regime's ability to conduct a fair and safe environment for election campaigning, the Communist Party's headquarters in Kiev were torched (this after their leader's house was torched earlier).
Maidan's "European values" didn't stop there, when Communist leader Petro Symnonenko gave a speech in the Parliament (where ~30% of the members no longer attend), he was assaulted [VIDEO] by Svoboda members (party with positions in coup government), in fact by the same ponytailed MP Ihor Miroshnichenko (of the parliaments's committee on freedom of speech) who had earlier assaulted a public TV producer while forcing him to resign:
Not to be outdone, Fatherland MP Irina Farion was recorded comparing the pro-Russian protestors to animals and saying they should all be shot: (translation)
*
* When Cossack Ukraine (actually "Zaporizian Sich", Ukraine was a Russian term applied to the region) joined Russian Empire, amidst wars w/ Ottomans/Tatars + anti-Orthodox Poles, albeit the Cossack Hetmanate she refers to never controlled most of SE Ukraine, and in fact Cossacks have come to be the most pro-Russian nationalists around. (cue Pussy Riot whipping)
In Nikolaev, Oleh Tsariov, presidential candidate in the coup-organized elections, apparently identified as "pro-Russian" (although I'm not sure how much support he has from pro-Russion populace, and/or whether they are interested in the coup-organized election to begin with) was seeking to visit 7 pro-federalization protestors hospitalized after attacks by far-right Ukrainian nationalists when he himself was attacked by extremists, suffering extensive bruising. The "official international PR secretariat of the EuroMaidan" commented on his wounds: .
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As far as how this plays out in America, whose government was backing and training groups who pulled off the coup,
The US is apparently REFUSING to share detailed satellite surveillance of Russian troop locations with the Kiev junta, which would help the junta's forces fight any Russian invasion much more effectively... Although ultimately it would just increase any bloodshed and not change the outcome of any conflict. Coup backers are a little bit sadder. I wonder how "Bay of Pigs" sounds in Russian/Ukrainian.
Moon of Alabama had a post looking at How Does The NPR Distinguish "Protesters" From "Mobs"?
The U.S. National Public Radio on Ukraine:
December 9 2013: Ukrainian Police Threaten To Drive Protesters Out Of City Buildings
April 7 2014: Mob In Ukraine Seizes Provincial Building, Declares Independence
And a funny one, a study by some Ivy League academics shows that the LESS Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the MORE they want U.S. to intervene.
I wonder what *I* win for guessing right?
Holy Wall of Text!
I wonder how "Bay of Pigs" sounds in Russian
Operat'sya v zalive Svinei.
cue Pussy Riot whipping
It was actually a set-up.Kossaks in Sochi,i heard,used different uniforms.Also,THEY NOT SUCK!Neutralization of three unarmed women taking muinutes?Really?
If Russia seizes more of Ukraine, Moscow is going to feel it.
If somethingthatlookslikecivilwar brokes out,and Russia does nothing,then Moscow is going to feel it.
Too bad there isn't a NATO missile defense system in Poland by now. It could shoot them down.
Irony.But it's still attack on NATO member,if only perceived,and still chapter 5.
Also,i have reasonable doubts of capability of AEGIS AMS against modern russian TBMs.Also,imagine reaction of said russians,if you launch to take out ukrainian nuclear capability and some poland shoots down your missiles...and then ukrainian launch.
This is why AEGIS,in it's ABM role,sucks.
It can't get the job done half reliably,but it can provoke just as well as a real ABM system.
I dunno where you get your info, but according to the test program the interceptors can hit SRBM targets after launch, during re-entry, and even cruise missiles in flight with higher than 80% accuracy from a mobile firing platform (guided missile destroyers).
I believe if the system was in place it would have no problem shooting down either Ukrainian, or Russian SRBMs or ICBMs. I think that's why there is such a stink about it. I think the main purpose was to shoot down anything that would come out of Iran...but, I guess Putin feels Russia's only value to the international community is to be the villain, so we will see.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, to a huge part of the international community, Russia and the US are the main villains veying for power at the expense of everyone else.
I dunno where you get your info, but according to the test program the interceptors can hit SRBM targets after launch
I'm a military fanatic.First and foremost,there is a difference between tests and reality.
There is,and this is more important,also a difference between SCUD,which is a more or less advanced clone of FAU-2,and modern TBMs.Namely,Iskander-class.You see,Iskander has a)decoys and b)evasion capabilities of,like,gazillion g.Why this is all important?Because SM-3 is a KINETIC KILL VEHICLE.You need extremely precise targeting to even have a chance to intercept anything.You see,at least MIRV blocks normally do not maneuver on re-entry.Exept when they do.
and even cruise missiles in flight
Are more or less easiest targets possible.Normally sub-sonic speed,no maneurability like AT ALL...there is a reason why russian interceptors packs increased ammo capacity for cannon.
ICBMs
Ohmygod.This is so not possible.One Satan-class ICBM has,literally,over a hundred decoys.
Peacekeeper,i heard,had similar capabilities.There is a reason why A-135 was(is?)nuclear-tipped.
I think the main purpose was to shoot down anything that would come out of Iran
Yeah,right.Iran,which has a)no nuclear weapons and,FAR more important,b)no delivery systems is the reason for BMD bases.
Oh, you're an expert! Well, then consider my concerns answered.
Yes, that's sarcasm.
Honestly, to a huge part of the international community, Russia and the US are the main villains veying for power at the expense of everyone else.
I'm sure that's true, but the current topic is Ukraine, and in this case the US is not trying to invade it, Russia is.
I'm sure that's true, but the current topic is Ukraine, and in this case the US is not trying to invade it, Russia is.
That's highly debatable.
Also,this is(was?) headquarters of Ukrainian ministry of internal affairs.Who invades what,again?
I was under the impression that the anti-missile systems were already in use by the US since the Gulf war and had been tested multiple times under fire (first in the Persian Gulf War when they shot incoming scuds, then later with more advanced missiles in other conflicts.
Hence, a proven system already.
My strength isn't military systems so...don't know tons about this stuff, but thought that this was already tested and done?