I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I couldn't find anything definite on this question.
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I have a character with the Sylvan Wildblood and Razmiran Priest Archetypes (they can be taken together because they don't replace the same things of a base sorcerer.
I hit 3rd level with my character, and then I get Aid instead of Entangle (I would have gotten Entangle from Sylvan as a subset of Fey). I can't cast Aid at all until I go up another level and it's a pretty underwhelming spell anyway.
When I hit 4th level, I want to take the human Favored Class bonus to add a 1st level spell to my list of spells known (it's a level below the highest I can cast, which is 2).
Can I pick Entangle for my spell known? It's normally a Druid spell but I would have gotten it as a bonus for 3rd level so I'd argue it should be allowed me.
As I see it, the lay healer ability replaces the bloodline spells, meaning those two bloodline spells effectively "never existed;" at no time did your character actually have or have a chance to have entangle as a spell. As a result, you would be no more able to gain it as a favored class bonus spell as you would be able to gain it as an additional spell known due to gaining sorcerer levels.
I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.
Is there an official ruling anywhere?
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gh0+1 wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.
Is there an official ruling anywhere?
John's a pretty official guy.
Also, when a bloodline spell is replaced, it has never been given to the bloodline in the first place. (Which basically is what John said.)
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gh0+1 wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.
Is there an official ruling anywhere?
Yep. Right here.
gh0+1 wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.
Is there an official ruling anywhere?
But you've traded away the bloodline option to get that spell by taking the Sylvan archetype. The feat only grants additional spells from the Sorcerer's spells known list as stated in the feat itself. It does not grant you spells from any other list.
The Sylvan bloodline is NOT the Fey bloodline. it is derivative from it but separate altogether. Just as taking a cleric subdomain is NOT taking the domain it's rooted from.
LazarX wrote: gh0+1 wrote: I understand where you're coming from, but when a spell is given as a bonus to a bloodline (Fey, in this case), I had thought it counted as a Sorcerer spell for all intents and purposes.
Is there an official ruling anywhere?
But you've traded away the bloodline option to get that spell by taking the Sylvan archetype. The feat only grants additional spells from the Sorcerer's spells known list as stated in the feat itself. It does not grant you spells from any other list.
The Sylvan bloodline is NOT the Fey bloodline. it is derivative from it but separate altogether. Just as taking a cleric subdomain is NOT taking the domain it's rooted from. But the Sylvan Wildblooded Bloodline has many of the same powers/features of the Fey bloodline - including the spells.
It's moot though, since Razmiran Priest replaces the spell in question.
gh0+1 wrote: I would have gotten it as a bonus for 3rd level so I'd argue it should be allowed me. Yea, but you replaced your chance. So you can't take Entangle anymore than a straight Sorcerer with no archetypes can take it.
Right. I guess it's all about how you define what becomes a "class spell" and for what reason. Not to mention "casting" (spell-like abilities qualify now for some things and not others for non-concrete reasons). For instance: theoretically, with a cheesy interpretation, a scion of humanity Aasimar could "cast" 3rd level divine / arcane spell right out of the box (daylight) and therefore load up on 2nd level spell access on Sorcerer or Oracle with the human's favored class bonus.
It's not that big a deal to me really -- the Razmiran template is kind of weird though in that it gives you spells you can't cast yet in exchange for spells you could...to make more sense it should have replaced spells at level 5 and 7 instead but RAW is RAW in that regard.
I'll miss entangle a bit, but more for character feel than much else as it's kind of a situational-use spell; I actually miss access to handle animal as a class skill more than anything else so far with that char.
The Aasimar's Daylight is treated as a 3rd level arcane SLA.
Sorry about going on in this thread instead of doing a new one, but does that mean that building an Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerer and taking level two bonus spells at levels 2, 3, and 4 with the human's favored class bonus is legal in PFS?
Because that sounds pretty cheesy and I had thought it wasn't allowed.
gh0+1 wrote: Sorry about going on in this thread instead of doing a new one, but does that mean that building an Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerer and taking level two bonus spells at levels 2, 3, and 4 with the human's favored class bonus is legal in PFS?
Because that sounds pretty cheesy and I had thought it wasn't allowed.
It is not allowed.
Scion of humanity lets you take human only feats and changes what spells can effect you.
Also the favor class for sorc give you one less than you can cast. SO a level 2 can take a level 0 spell, level 3 a level 1, level 4 a level 1.
Finlanderboy wrote: gh0+1 wrote: Sorry about going on in this thread instead of doing a new one, but does that mean that building an Aasimar scion of humanity sorcerer and taking level two bonus spells at levels 2, 3, and 4 with the human's favored class bonus is legal in PFS?
Because that sounds pretty cheesy and I had thought it wasn't allowed.
It is not allowed.
Scion of humanity lets you take human only feats and changes what spells can effect you.
Also the favor class for sorc give you one less than you can cast. SO a level 2 can take a level 0 spell, level 3 a level 1, level 4 a level 1.
Yes, but Daylight is a 3rd level spell. So if having a 3rd level SLA counts for being able to "cast" a 3rd level spell (Daylight) at 1st level, that means you can add a 2nd level spell known with your human favored class ability when you hit 2, and then again when you hit 3, 4, and 5.
I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out...
Scion of humanity does not unlock the favor class options. So it is a moot point either way
Finlanderboy wrote: Scion of humanity does not unlock the favor class options. So it is not a moot point either way The recent errata didn't raise that point...I read the requisite post and all it did was limit feats.
RAW, it's legal, and it's not specifically disallowed in PFS (nor should it be, IMO).
Here's a copy of the relevant text:
An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids.
If you count as human for any effect related to race, you count as human for the favored class ability, too.
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The only questions I have are related to what, exactly, spell-like abilities let you qualify for. It is my personal feeling that SLA's shouldn't qualify you for anything that would specifically require a certain spellcasting ability, but others have ruled that you specifically CAN do so (for purposes of Mystic Theurge etc), so I was raising that little point.
gh0+1 wrote: So if having a 3rd level SLA counts for being able to "cast" a 3rd level spell (Daylight) at 1st level, that means you can add a 2nd level spell known with your human favored class ability when you hit 2, and then again when you hit 3, 4, and 5. While this may be true, having a 2nd level spell known at 1st level doesn't materially do anything for you because you don't have any 2nd level spell slots.
True. More a thought experiment than anything else really.
I'm fond of offbeat designs and combos that actually work in gameplay or whatever else I do though.
I design more for coolness than power generally but sometimes those two qualities intersect.
gh0+1 wrote:
Yes, but Daylight is a 3rd level spell. So if having a 3rd level SLA counts for being able to "cast" a 3rd level spell (Daylight) at 1st level, that means you can add a 2nd level spell known with your human favored class ability when you hit 2, and then again when you hit 3, 4, and 5.
I'm not advocating this, just pointing it out... It's not a spell you can cast as a Sorcerer, it's a Spell Like Ability.
Favored Class Bonus wrote:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
Emphasis mine. This is about your abilities as a Sorcerer: Having a level 3 SLA or being able to cast 3rd level spells from another class doesn't have any impact on your ability to cast spells as a Sorcerer. The favored class option is predicated on what you can do in that class. So, even if you're a Wizard 5/Sorcerer 3, and all your Wizard spells known are on the Sorcerer spell list, you can't start taking extra level 2 spells before you can cast level 3 spells as a Sorcerer.
Some things require contextual reading and aren't always spelled out in the text, like when a class ability mentions "your level" which means your level in that class rather than your character level.
Unfortunately that argument would also disallow the early-entry MT and other loopholes that are specifically allowed.
The FAQ dated 6/6/13:
"Spell-like abilities, casting, and prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Yes."
Now, what is the Human Favored Class ability of a sorcerer but a "...prerequisite or requirement..." that he can know an extra spell at least one level lower than the highest level spell he can cast?
Therefore, by RAW, an Aasimar Scion of Humanity can choose to know extra spells of 2, 1, or 0 level when leveling up to 7.
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While this SOUNDS wrong and I'd be OK with a GM disallowing it in his home game (and PFS disallowing that trick), when you think about it you're only getting a boost at the lower levels when casters are at their weakest anyway...and not a whole lot of people are going to go for 7 extra level 2 spells known.
I'd like to know if PFS would disallow both this and the early-entry tricks...it seems the most simple and rational way to go...
"Early entry" into PrCs in PFS is allowed because "it" is a part of the PFRPG rules set.
This Favored Class Bonus idea you've come up with is not.
It's a grey area that works by RAW with the FAQ...
I doubt I'll try it in a PFS game because it's obviously an exploit (I didn't do any of the RAW Nature Oracle / superpet tricks either, though I could have I suppose).
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If the FAQ says what it says, then what generic Aasimar scions of humanity can do is cast an SLA counted as a level 3 arcane spell.
The human FCA (which Aasimar scion of humanity has access to): Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
Therefore, the Aasimar SoH sorcerer is treated as being able to cast an arcane spell level 3, and RAW can use the FCA to add spells known at one level lower than what he can cast -- which, by FAQ, is treated as 3-1, giving him access to levels 2, 1, and 0 spells as bonus spells through the human FCA.
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Let's compare that to something like the Mystic Theurge, which relies on being able to cast 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells. A Tiefling casts Darkness as an SLA, which from FAQ, is counted as a 2nd level arcane spell to qualify for MT at Sorc 1 / Cleric 3.
The earliest you could have taken MT without tricks like this is 2 levels higher with wizard -- so you saved yourself 2 levels and gave yourself better synergy with your casting stat (assuming you went Empyreal sorc / cleric for the basic design).
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Do you see how the exploits compare? Effectively you have more flexibility as a sorc using my trick, and you have more viability as an MT using the standard trick.
If you disallow one, you should logically disallow the other...and if you don't you should at least spell something like this out.
Thank you.
I don't think you understand what "RAW" stands for.
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Being able to cast a 3rd level arcane spell as a spell-like ability does not mean you can cast a 3rd level spell as a Sorcerer, and the FAQ does nothing to change that. The reason it works for Mystic Theurge is that Mystic Theurge has a requirement based on the arcane and divine spell level you can cast, which is not necessarily the same as the level of spell that you can cast from your spell casting classes. The favored class bonus is based on the highest level spell you can cast as a Sorcerer. A spell-like ability is not cast as a Sorcerer. It is cast as a spell-like ability.
To give another example, a Wizard 9 who takes a level in Sorcerer can cast 5th level spells as a Wizard but can only cast 1st level spells as a Sorcerer. He wouldn't be able to take a 4th level spell with his Sorcerer favored class bonus. Nefreet and Akerlof are correct. The FAQ does not apply in this case.
Nefreet wrote: I don't think you understand what "RAW" stands for. Ridiculous Arguments to prevent play from Working?
This thread is not about PFS. It is nothing but rules questions, none of which are specific to Society play. Flagging.
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