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Was looking for a bit of advice on a new character idea I am looking into. For my next campaign, I want to make a character that can soak of a lot of damage and can help the group by playing a battlefield control role. The class I saw that looks most appealing to me is the Dwarven Paladin archetype of Stonelord. I talked to my GM and he was cool with me rolling a Duergar into that class. He is going to be very anti Dwarf (obviously) and Drow, but not quite kill on sight. Was planning on playing him as an obstinate, untrusting guy begrudgingly coming to the surface to accomplish his overarching character task.
With this set up, I have two main questions:
--How does my level 1 set up look for what I want to do?
--I am very set on Stonelord for the character idea I have in mind, but am open to prestige classing into SD. What are everyone's thoughts on me going into Stalwart Defender at level 8? I have heard that this may not be as good an idea as it may seem on paper.
Here is what I was thinking of going for at level 1:
(20 pt buy)
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 17 (+2)
Int: 10
Wis: 10 (+2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Traits:
--Militant Merchant (+1 perception and it becomes a class skill)
--Steel Skin (+2 intimidate, don armor in 1/2 the time, helmet has family crest on it)
--Convincing Liar (+1 trait bonus to bluff or Intimidate, and one of these skills becomes a class skill)
--Drawback: Pride (When threatened/accused/challenged, take a –2 penalty on diplomacy and Sense Motive involving that person until the creature apologizes to you.)
Feats:
Feat (lv 1): Dodge (+1 dodge to AC)
Any thoughts on how to play out my Stonelord are greatly appreciated!
It depends on what you want the SD for. You'd get the Stance Powers quicker, and the ability to take a 5ft step quicker. You'd be giving up most of your level dependent abilities from Stonelord, or at least hampering the ones you did get, like Heartstone. Stoneblood would essentially be stuck at 25%, your earth elemental would stay small, you will never get bane or later abilities. This is all assuming you take SD the moment you hit 8th level, and take the full 10 levels in the class.
Edit: If after hitting Stonelord 7/Stalwart Defender 10, you put the last 3 levels into Stonelord again, you would get a medium earth elemental and your DR/Adamantine would increase by an extra 2. Your natural armor would increase by an extra +1. Your fortification would increase to 50%.
I have a friend who's playing a Stonelord and he says he loves it. He's tough as nails, and even harder to hit, occasionally making the monsters smash their own thumbs. He's in the same boat you are, as far as considering going Stalwart Defender. Here's a build idea though, as far as for soaking damage. It's even got your name on it. A feat called Stalwart, and then there's Improved Stalwart. They're worth checking out.
I was thinking of going SD to be able to get more tools to help survive and help protect the party more. From what you are saying, it seems a bit like I would potentially be slowing down some of what I want (that I would get from Stonelord with more levels). Hmm...guess I will need to look into this more.
Also, what thoughts do folks have on what feats to take were I to go solely Stonelord (aside from the Dorn-Dergar feats)?
Well, as I stated above, the stalwart feat is pretty good. You'll need an intelligence of 13 to get combat expertise to really make it expedition ally good. But it's not bad regardless. The improved bulwark doubles it's bonuses. AND here's the best part, it's one of the few, if not the ONLY source that allows DR to stack.
That's cool, but those would be down the line (i.e. Imp Stalwart requires 11 BAB). What is your friend doing with his build?
I built a Stonelord Paladin a while ago. I was very surprised by how interesting the archetype is. It's almost like a whole different class.
It's a pretty cool build, IMHO. I built it using 20pt buy at levels 1, 3, 6 and 10. And I even added a few notes about what it can do at each level. Feel free to check it out. :)
Rocky Balboulder - Stonelord Paladin.
Hope that helps.
Thanks so much! I will definitely check this out as soon as I can!
Would I not want to put more points into Con instead of Str?
If ALL you're wanting to do is soak up damage, make everything your dump stat except Con and Dex. However, not all enemies are going to attack you if they see a more viable target. And if you're just cooling them off by fanning your blade at them, they'll say thank you as they munch on your wizard's corpse. Higher Strength means, better chance to hit, and hurt monsters bad enough to make them want to hit you back.
As a Duergar you can enlarge person on yourself already, coupled with a reach weapon like a dwarven longhammer, once you go into Defensive Stance, you will control a huge portion of the battlefield. You need enough dex to make Combat Reflexes useful. Add in Stand Still and the DS power, Halting Blow, that lets you keep everyone within your giant sphere of influence.
Great point Sin...I didn't think about it that way.
Suggestions on what dex to go for early on while trying to still get tough armor?
Would I not want to put more points into Con instead of Str?
You have to be a credible threat if you don't want to be ignored.
Also, many opponents will have means to downright ignore low damage output. If you're not hurting you opponents, then you may survive the battle, but you are not really helping your party, and each extra round the battle lasts is an extra round someone could roll a natural 1 vs a SoD or take full attack with a couple critical hits. Finally, sometimes, your enemy will target your allies for whatever reason (maybe they were closer to the enemy, maybe the enemies are smart enough to target casters first, etc), at those times, you gotta be able to move and cause a considerable amount of damage to those who are attacking your allies, so that they shift their focus back to you, the tank.
There is no problem focusing on defense, but if your offensive tools are not a threat, then most intelligent opponents won't bother going through the trouble of attacking you before they kill as many of your allies as they can.
Now, Rocky there barely put any investment in defense, and he still has a pretty good AC. Changing a little of his gear for more AC/HP could easily put his AC above 30. I think it's a bit unnecessary, though, with his great HP, DR, LoH and chance to ignore critical hits.
Remember: Even through you certainly don't want to be hit all the time, you do want to be hit often enough to encourage enemies to attack you instead of the squishy Wizard. The best course of action for a Tank, at least IMO, is having good AC, but not insanely good AC. If they only hit once a round most of the time, you're fine. If they never hit you except on a natural 20, you went too far.
EDIT: Ah, forgot to reply to this post.
Suggestions on what dex to go for early on while trying to still get tough armor?
Hmmm... I'd go with Dex 14 and then buy Belts of Dext later on. Rocky bought a Belt of Str +4, but if you check my other builds, you'll notice he's an exception to the rule. I usually buy belts of Str/Dex/Con +2 instead of boosting a single attribute too high.
Like I said, Rocky doesn't even focus on defense and he still got AC 25~27 anyway. Without a shield, might I add. Buying some better armor, a Dex-boosting belt and an Amulet of Natural Armor could easily put his AC above 30.
This is very helpful. I am still within my first year of playing D&D type games and I guess I was getting too stuck in the mindset of MMOs (which I have a lot of experience in). Even in those cases though, you still want to be a threat (even though different mechanics exist for you to be a threat). Any other thoughts?
Again, very helpful...thanks for the insight!
I'm glad I could help.
Always keep in mind that there's no aggro mechanic in PF, so you must give your enemies a good reason to attack you, the Tank, instead of whoever you're trying to protect.
As a martial character, the easiest way to do this is through sheer damage output. Enemies can't afford to ignore you because if they do, you'll murder-death-kill them while they have their backs turned to you.
There are other ways, though. Positioning is a good idea. Just don't let your enemies move around you and they have no choice other than attacking you first. However, intercepting enemies is kinda difficult in a round-based game, so using a reach weapon (and some armor spikes, just so you can threaten enemies adjacent to you), Combat Reflexes (make extra AoO), Lunge (increase your range by 5ft 'til the end of your turn) and Stand Still (use an AoO to stop enemies from moving around you) can help a lot. Improved Trip would be nice too, but the necessary investment in a secondary attribute (Int) and long feat chains makes it too expensive for a Paladin, which is already a feat-starved class.
- Being able to buff your allies and/or debuff your enemies also gives your opponents a reason to attack you. Cornugon Smash (allows you to Intimidate enemies as a free action when you hit them with Power Attack, possibly giving them a -2 to attack rolls, saves and skill checks) is awesome. The low charisma doesn't matter if you get Intimidating Prowess (add Str to Intimidate checks).
- At 11th level, you can grab Dazing Assault, which can force multiple saves on your enemy every round, if they fail just once of them, they're stunned and unable to act for a whole round. Awesome, huh? Yeah, but risky too... Even if only in a meta-gamey way. Keep in mind that Dazing Assault is a very, very powerful feat. So there is always the risk that your GM might get annoyed by it and, and no one wants that, so consider it carefully... (The GM is likely to feel perfectly justified in using the same feat against you).
- Finally, there're some other nice tricks... Like buying a Hat of Disguise (or getting the Glamour enchantment on your armor) and using it to change your appearance to that of a Wizard. Smart enemies who can't see through the illusion would mistake you for an squishy-but-dangerous caster and only learn the error of their ways once you're already full-attacking them with your skull-crushing maul.
Oh, and whatever you do... ALWAYS. CARRY. A. BOW.
Sure, you'll never be as good with it as you are with your main weapon... But it's better to be able to deal somewhat lower damage to flying enemies than being completely unable to do anything to them. A +1 Adaptive Composite Longbow is pretty cheap at mid/high levels and can save your life... Or at very least, give you something to do against flying opponents (which become rather common by then).
With Dex 16, full BAB and high Str, you can still hit those flyers hard enough for them to feel the sting. Maybe add Deadly Aim (like Power Attack, but for ranged weapons) later on to make your ranged damage output even better.
EDIT: Ah, right... When using tactics that rely on CMB vs CMD, be careful with what you use them on. Bigger enemies (3+ size categories bigger than you) often have way-too-high CMD, so it's often very difficult to successfully use things like combat maneuvers and Stand Still against them.
EDIT 2: Since I'm already here... Might as well post this... :P
2- Carry backup weapons. Because you'll eventually be disarmed or have your weapon destroyed. Have a back up. It doesn't have to be as good as your main weapon, but it has to be good enough to keep you alive until you find a better one.
3- Remember: there are no aggro mechanics in Pathfinder. If you want your enemies to focus on you instead of the squishy wizard, you have to give them a reason to! Most often, this reason is raw damage output, but there are other ways.
4- Don't underestimate consumables. I know potions/scrolls are wasted after you use them, but sometimes, they're all you need to get through that one encounter/challenge.
5- Don't overspecialize. Be awesome at whatever it is that you want to be awesome, but don't do it at the cost of being ineffective at everything else. Sometimes, your usual course of action will not be a viable solution.
6- Always try and get as much information about your next challenge/enemies/puzzles/quest/etc as you can. Knowing is half the battle.
7- Carry wands of Cure Light Wounds and wands of Lesser Restoration. They'll save your life more often than your party. lol.
8- Put skill ranks in Perception. Even if your Wis score is not very good and Perception is not one of your class skills. You'll be rolling Perception skill checks more often than any other, so you might as well invest in it. It'll probably save your life at some point.
Good Luck & Have Fun!