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Well I've found out that this particular class goes EXTREMELY well multiclassing.
It can.
-You dip in 2 levels and you got or 3 naturals attacks or 1 extra arm or BOTH with feat (other discoveries are nice for spellcasters just didn't analized them)
Uh...yeah, once a day for a whole 20 minutes. Not exactly the be-all end all.
-You gain acces to extracts that are spells that can be drinked with 1 move action with Fast drinker trait and you will have them in hand with that extra arm...
Fast Drinker has been explicitly stated to not work like this on Extracts.
-You gain the mutagen boosting your primary stat to an incredebly new whole level and gaining nat armor. I know the drawback but the benefit is too much. You get the bombs, not too OP but really nice.
Again, once a day for less than half an hour.
-You can make your mutagen go to your "spirit" stats with archetype.
True.
With the rewards froms esoteric training and the other one (don't remember now) a spellcaster doesn't lose effective levels.
True.
A mele class can dip in 4 levels, get 2 discoveries, 2nd lvl extracts for the drink and spit (I love this one) and only losing 1 BA in the progress.
True. And ups the Mutagen to lasting a whole 40 minutes. You can go vivisectionist and get +2d6 Sneak attack out of it, too.
And a ranged one... well, more dex or more str can't hurt, pick the one you want precision or more damage with your comp. bow (adaptative)
True.
Probably the ones who don't get that much are the utility PC but since they are utility they don't need to exploit it since it's they shine in another way. But still, +4 dex while disarming a trap or +4 wis if you're going to scout looks nices for me (remember you need to pick which one to prepare beforehand)
Again...you get one of these a day for a very brief period. You can make more if you grab Infuse Mutagen, but that does Int damage (necessitating a Lesser Restoration or a couple of days rest between times you do that) and costs 1000 gp a pop. Not a negligible cost for most of your PC's career.
I'm not ranting in fact I'm working in a barb/alch and it just rocks.
I'm the only one who thinks that or is just some kind of misconcept and I'm blinded by the mutagen and the charms of this class?
You're really overvaluing Mutagen. Not because it's not cool, but because it's a once per day thing. You get maybe two fights out of it in most cases.
Alchemist is indeed a very good 'dip' class (which I actually like thematically, since dabbling in Alchemy is a cool thematic element), but it's not nearly as broken as you're making it out to be.
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Mutagen is not once a day. It just takes an hour to make a new one.
Mutagen is not once a day. It just takes an hour to make a new one.
Which is once per day under most circumstances.
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Mutagen is not once a day. It just takes an hour to make a new one.Was going to say that.
True...but it's still an hour of prep for 20 minutes benefit...so not an all-the-time thing.
Ok, fast drinker doesn't work, that a shame.
Drunken rager doesn't work too? Well...still free rage drinking alcohol, not all lost...
Indeed.
Now the one that really surprised me:
"Again...you get one of these a day for a very brief period. You can make more if you grab Infuse Mutagen, but that does Int damage (necessitating a Lesser Restoration or a couple of days rest between times you do that) and costs 1000 gp a pop. Not a negligible cost for most of your PC's career."
What? It's temporary the penalty while you have the mutagen active
" In addition, while the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist takes a –2 penalty to one of his mental ability scores."
I was referring explicitly to Infuse Mutagen one of the few ways to really do multiple Mutagens a day without ridiculous downtime lengths. Which does do Int damage.
So...still nice. I rely on mutagen because in PFS modules it works great, you can say to your mates, let's rest a bit after this combat then you make another mutagen.
I would assume there are consequences to waiting an hour between encounters a fair amount of the time. Heck, the Wizard's Mage Armor and several other such things will run out quick if you really do this too much. At least at lower levels.
Remember for mele classes that doesn't rely on special abilities (aka paladin) they can dip 4 levels losing only 1 BA and the benefits are inmense.
True...but it does delay Barbarians getting Pounce and other similar level-dependent stuff.
Except in modules that goes against time you can spend 1 hour with your group eating or resting a bit while using your wands for heal betwen combats or discussing where to go...
A full hour? Not usually between every encounter. Not in most games I've seen anyway. Healing and talking takes five to ten minutes tops in most games I've seen where there's, y'know, linked encounters.
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20 min are a lot, in my case I'll go for 40 min, but that's another matter.
Well you said something about linked encounters. 20 min are 200 rounds, lets take 2 or 3 linked encounters then rest 1 hour.
True. Like I said, two encounters is doable, if you need to heal and plan between (which you usually do), three is probably pushing it (depending on travel times), but possible.
As I said I know that the duration/preparation of the mutagen is a bit annoying but as I stated if you don't have any hurry you can say to your mates to wait 1 hour it's not that hard and it benefits everyone.
Remember that you still have the extracts to back you up.
I'm not sure the PCs, and especially the GM, will usually be as accommodating as all that. But yeah, it's possible.
Yes it delays getting pounce, but that's barbarian specific, what about monks/fighters/rangers? (and other class features, already stated)
Pounce was an example. Fighters delay Weapon and Armor Training, Monks delay better Flurry of Blows and a host of other stuff, Rangers delay Favored Enemy, spellcasting, and combat style Feats. Everyone delays stuff that's nice to have.
My point is the side benefits that you gain are too nice and maybe isn't that painfull to wait a bit.
I disagree. They're nice, and really help to 'nova' but aren't any better than dabbling in several other Classes (5 levels of Inquisitor, for example, is also pretty awesome for martial characters).
If your mates understand the "weakness" of the mutagen they will surely let you have that hour to prepare another one ^^
I'm not going to repeat myself anymore about the duration/uses of mutagen.
I'ts crystal clear that in some modules you can prepare more than once or you just save it for the final combat. I understand the drawback but still is too good to let it pass.
Then you should totally take it. Not everyone's gonna agree with that assessment all the time, though.
Let's recap:
Pros:
-Mutagen
-Extracts
-Discoveries you can do so much, from extra arms to better pots or side effects.
-Bombs
Con:
-Uses/duration mutagen
-Less BA
-Less CL this one is the most painfull =(
-Slow progress in class features
Bombs are a bit meh when dipping. Melee characters outside PFS (where its disallowed) should likely go Vivisectionist for Sneak Attack instead. But yeah, that looks accurate. I just think the cons are a bigger deal than you seem to.
The other con is the need for an Int of at least 12-ish, preferably more like 14 (so the -2 doesn't get in the way) in order for any of this to work. That's a non-negligible opportunity cost from an optimization perspective. Personally, I like playing smart characters, so I don't see this as quite as big a deal as others might, but it's still worth noting.
So if you don't mind reaching a low level cap for your class features, you want a side boost or a nice flavour to your PC I think that still is too good for MC.
I'll try to edit to add more cons/pros
I'm not arguing Alchemist isn't a good dip class. It is. I'm arguing it's not 'too good'. Ie: this is not something every character needs to do to remain competitive with those who do it.