Improved Trip vs Stand Still

[Dukan]

Meet Hardwick Battlebeard. He's a guisarme weilding Dwarven Polearm Master that I'm trying to develop into an expert tripper/battlefield controller type fighter. His feats are cleave, great cleave, combat reflexes, combat expertise, and improved trip.

I was considering the stand still feat next to help him better control battles, but wouldn't it be just as effective (if not more so) to trip an opponent rather than keep them from moving? I can't think of a scenario when it wouldn't be. It seems like greater trip would be a better choice.

Maybe stand still could be more useful with improved reposition? Or is it possible to reposition a prone (tripped) opponent?

Dukan

[Kazumetsa Raijin]

The only differences - If an opponent cannot be tripped. That's where Stand Still would be better as far as control goes. Trip is better for the most part though, as they would provoke from movement or standing up, along with them having -4 AC vs Melee. It's a CMB vs CMD check either way, and both use an AoO either way. I've looked into this a lot myself as a Monk.. but I ended up sticking with Improved Trip.

I think what it narrows down to, is do you want more control that makes the target easier to hit with melee, harder for them to melee anyone else, and could possibly provoke an AoO? Then go with Improved Trip.
Do you want even better control but without the extra stuff? Then go with Stand Still.

[KainPen]

Standstill does not work with reach also and because of that I have never seen it use expect in narrow hallways. The foe has to pass through the 5ft adjacent squares next to you. So it only works melee weapons.

Because of this it does not work with natural reach either. as the first reach square normally the one that triggers aoo thus they are not going to trigger in the squares adjacent to you. Also there are no bonus to add to this it is a raw CMB vs CMD check. It is a rather useless feat unless house ruled to work with any square you threaten.

Also Cleave feats are not going to be any good after level 6, and are not very good for battle field controller if that is what you are going for. Mobile fighter and whirlwind attack and effects extra added effect like trip or disarm do a better job.

Fighter brawler or Ranger focus on shield slam also does a better job. Deepens on party really, on how good you battle field controlling is going to be. If you have reach fighter like yourself that focus on damage and getting aoo from reach, a shield one and a monk all with decent dex and combat reflexes you all will perform a lot better as you feed each other’s aoo and cause lots and lots of status effects and damage. Was just recently in a party like this add we did not even need a healer. Just used wands. Brawler killed spell casting for bad guys because he was also had disruptive feats. Best part was none of us planned for the character to work so well together they just happen fit perfectly together. Real battle field control come from team work, get with other party member and see how you can feed each other ability’s and make each other shine.

[Dukan]

Thanks all. Yeah, after looking at it some more, I think stand still is a waste. I'm curious why you say the cleave feats are no good after 6 level though?

[Remy Balster]

You might wanna take a look at Pin Down for your level 11 feat. It is pretty awesome.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The Cleave feat line is actually fine, especially as a dwarf, except you need to add in Goblin Cleaver and Orc Hewer so they don't need to be adjacent.
Then you pick up Cleaving Finish/Greater Trip and with a reach weapon you become a Monster.

Trip everything within reach after a full move with great cleave, no need to be adjacent because of dwarven feats. Then, hit them again (and let your allies take theirs first btw to get them low on HP before you take yours) with greater trip. Then, any of them that die, let you take another swing from cleaving finish/imp cleaving finish.

By about 7th level, you should be able to hit a whole crowd, drop them to the ground, hit 3-4 of them again (depending on dex), if you kill any of them get another attack at your highest bonus for each one killed.

PA, Cleave, GCleave, goblin cleaver, orc hewer, combat reflexes, cleaving finish, expertise, imp trip/gr trip.

STR 16 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 13 Wis 9 Cha 5 with 20pt buy, better if you actually get to roll stats. All increase to Str since 3 AoO's is probably enough. With Glory of old trait and dwarven racials, the will saves should still be enough to function.

If it wasn't for the trip line, I'd almost take Surprise Follow Thru (it's in the orc section of the APG, but doesn't require you to be an orc, one of their archetypes just gets it for free) to make them flat footed on any cleave targets.

I actually built a 2hand fighter/rogue that gets pretty wicked using the dwarf cleave lines, a Merciful Dorn-Duergar, Surprise follow thru, and the enforcer/sap master lines.

Something like d10+8d6+36 at 10th level, ... to as many targets as he can reach in 20ft... err... only the d10+20 on the first target.