Bardic Performance Question

[MattR1986]

I've seen related questions answered, but I'd like some clarification on this.

Quote:

Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action.

At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action.

Ok so you start one and for that round burn a use of bardic performance, then each round maintain it as a free action and burn a round of usage for each round its active.

Now it says for 7th starting a performance is a move action, but does that include changing performances since above it specifies changing is a standard action?

Also if the opponent passes his will save on a performance on the first time I use it, can I then (at 7th level) use my second move to attempt it on them again? And this would use up two uses of bardic performance from that round, yes?

[Thymus Vulgaris]

I'm not so sure about the try again thing (I might say you'd have to make sure they'd actually failed, and they haven't had their turn yet), but as for changing performance it should be a move action. I'm saying this based on the fact that one might as well end the old performance as a free action and start a new one as a move action, so there is no sense in saying that if you do it the one way, you spend a standard action, and the other way you spend a free and a move action.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

I would apply the same rule to SLA and supernatural abilities, so if the bard ability has an area of effect you don't know if the targets have saved or not, if it is a targeted ability you will know if it worked.

Edit: if you are activating an ability again the target have to save against it a second time, regardless of what ability you are using [barring special rules, like for the witches hexes]. Note that there is a catch, the bardic performance rules say: "A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."

[MattR1986]

I suppose if one fails you could try again with the same or another one.

[Zark]

You can retry but notice that some abilities comes with the restriction: “If the save succeeds, the creature is immune to this ability for 24 hours.”
Also as pointed out by TV and Diego it would be kind of pointless unless you are sure that the target actually failed their save. I think Diego’s suggestion makes sense, but talk with your GM/DM

Diego Rossi wrote:

Edit: if you are activating an ability again the target have to save against it a second time, regardless of what ability you are using [barring special rules, like for the witches hexes]. Note that there is a catch, the bardic performance rules say: "A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."

My Bold

The catch isn’t a problem. As long as the bard stops and restarts he only has one bardic performance in effect at one time. The rules say “in effect at one time” they don’t say “in effect during the same round”.
I even checked with James Jacobs who designed the class.

[Diego Rossi]

Lingering performance.

Not sure if there are specific bardic performances that will be affected by this limit beside that, but there are so many archetypes in so many books that it is possible.

BTW: the general consensus seem to be that you can "downgrade" the speed at which you activate a bardic performance.
I.e, if you can use a bardic performance as a swift action and you have already used your swift action this turn, you can downgrade it to a move or even a standard action.

Bardic performance say:
"At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action."
not "must".

[MattR1986]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Lingering performance.

Not sure if there are specific bardic performances that will be affected by this limit beside that, but there are so many archetypes in so many books that it is possible.

BTW: the general consensus seem to be that you can "downgrade" the speed at which you activate a bardic performance.
I.e, if you can use a bardic performance as a swift action and you have already used your swift action this turn, you can downgrade it to a move or even a standard action.

Bardic performance say:
"At 7th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a move action instead of a standard action. At 13th level, a bard can start a bardic performance as a swift action."
not "must".

Ya, I saw the "can" thing in another thread. I hope my DM agrees with me. If so, as an 8th level street perfomer, it means I can Fascinate 2x a round if the first one fails, or if they are already fascinated, try suggestion, and if that fails, I could cancel fascinate and do a different performance as a move.