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Thanks in advance for your time and input. There are two builds: a Kensai archetype and a standard Magus. Design parameters were: Wayang, 20 points, DPR-oriented, Built to level 9. This character is being played after retiring a previous one via Eyes of the Ten, which as I recall means I can increase one attribute by +2 beyond what has been factored.
Stats: 20 pts
Str: 10
Dex: 18 = 10 pts +2 Race
Con: 10
Int: 18 = 10 pts +2 Race
Wis: 8 = -2 Race
Cha: 10
Trait: Metamagic Master(Shocking Grasp)
Trait: Magical Knack(Magus)
Progression
Level 1: Magus 1 - BAB 0
Level 2: Magus 2 - BAB 1
Level 3: Wizard 1 - BAB 1
Level 4: Magus 3 - BAB 2
Level 5: Magus 4 - BAB 3
Level 6: Magus 5 - BAB 3
Level 7: Magus 6 - BAB 4
Level 8: Magus 7 - BAB 5
Level 9: Magus 8 - BAB 6
- Skills
- Fly: 9 ranks
- Knowledges: 18 ranks
- Perception: 9 ranks
- Spellcraft: 9 ranks
- Use Magic Device: 9 ranks
Gear
There are only some requirements in gear. Since I didn't pick up Dervish Dance, I have to enchant Agile.
Piranha Strike requires a light weapon which leaves me using a Kukri for the threat range.
Questions
I really want to keep the Wizard level for Versatile Evocation which I feel vastly broadens the effectiveness of Intensified Shocking Grasps (the cornerstone of Magus DPR). However I am not sure where the best place to squeeze it in is. If I wait until level 8 I can get Spellblending two levels sooner, which is tempting, but then I spend a lot of time not using a cornerstone widget.
Where would you work in Spell Penetration? I am tempted to swap it out for Spellblending.
Thoughts on the trait Pragmatic Activator? It lets me use Int for UMD, giving me a much better check.
Spellcombat and Spellstrike specifically state that can use them with any spell on the Magus List, but does not specify granted by the Magus class. I should be able to cast any Wizard spells I pick that are on both lists with those class features. Does anyone know if this is not the case?
A lot of the power from this design comes from using the Admixture to alter my energy type as needed, giving me more situations to use Shocking Grasp. Further I can use the Wizard levels to host non-scaling buffs like True Strike and Shield which frees up more slots for Intensified Shocking Grasp. Any arguments why this is a poor choice?
The Alternative...
Stats: 20 pts
Str: 10
Dex: 18 = 10 pts +2 Race
Con: 10
Int: 18 = 10 pts +2 Race
Wis: 8 = -2 Race
Cha: 10
Trait: Metamagic Master(Shocking Grasp)
Trait: Magical Knack(Magus)
Progression
Level 1: Lore Warden 1 - BAB 1
Level 2: Lore Warden 2 - BAB 2
Level 3: Kensai 1 - BAB 2
Level 4: Kensai 2 - BAB 3
Level 5: Kensai 3 - BAB 4
Level 6: Kensai 4 - BAB 5
Level 7: Kensai 5 - BAB 5
Level 8: Kensai 6 - BAB 6
Level 9: Kensai 7 - BAB 7
[list]Skills
Gear
There are only some requirements in gear. Since I didn't pick up Dervish Dance, I have to enchant Agile.
Piranha Strike requires a light weapon which leaves me using a Wakizashi for the threat range.
Questions
With the Lore Warden I have enough feats (at the right level) to use a Whip, which gives me the ability to deliver touch spells at 30' if I invest in it (Lunge, Enlarge, Gloves or Bracers, etc...) and I could take great advantage of Combat Reflexes and a maneuver. Any suggestions on this? I know I lose out on damage, and the lower crit range hurts, too, but I feel the payout is worth considering.
It would synergize better if I could get Power Attack and invest in Bull Rush over Dirty Trick (which is the better maneuver overall). Any ideas on how to do this or advice on how it plays out? I'm thinking of things like Force Push + Improved Bull Rush + Weapon Finesse etc...
Is there any way aside from using a whip to get reach for the Magus?
More Questions
I feel pretty confident on spell selection but any insight, tips or suggestions are appreciated! Especially regarding wands to use and Spells to take via Spellblending Arcana.
Perception untrained - Getting a penalty from Wis and no bonus from Training, I am not convinced I should even take this skill. The check will never be reliable. I was tempted to take Acrobatics instead. Thoughts?
Shocking Grasp - Man, what a great a spell for this class. There aren't too many others that synergize as well. I was tempted to look into some cold spells for an alternative and to maybe pick up Rime Spell. Has anyone else looked into this? What did you discover?
Metamagic Feats - Do you have any suggestions? Intensify Spell is the gold standard, but piercing spell and rime spell looked like good ones. Building for Trip and Toppling spell looked like good ideas, anyone seen that in action?
Wand Wielder says I can use wands with Spell Combat. It does not specify that the wands need to be for spells on the Magus Spell list. Does this mean I can use, say Wand of Bless with Spell Combat?
Metamagic Rods, it looks like a Magus uses them the same way as any other caster, correct? How does it interact with Spell Combat?
Dimensional Agility and the entire feat chain. Is it a trap? I want it to be cool but my initial assessment is that It's not worth it.
That's it, thanks again for any help!
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I agree with perception, as putting ranks in it aren't going to make it that high, and there are spells instead that can grant bonuses to perception if you really need it [granted via scrolls].
For spells, Frostbite+Rime Spell+Blade of Mercy/Bludgeoner+Enforcer combo means you can do extra damage with an attack, and fatigue, shaken, and entangle the target, and maybe even frighten him.
Intensify Spell certainly is the best, but I'd just take the rod/spell pen line instead of piercing, so to keep spell level down. You are in PFS, so it is a while before you can cast high level spells. Toppling is a neat trick to have on a Magic Missile or two, just as a backup range spell.
Metamagic Rods+Spell Combat doesn't work unless you A.)have 3 arms, B)have a way of holding one with no arms [Tiefling tale is a common one], or C.)have something like GM fiat [which doesn't quite work in PFS].
Dimensional Agility chain is neat, but hard to get in PFS due to level.
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For some additional ideas, I'm trying to promote my guide found HERE.
Going whip master for a magus seems to be more of a trip concept to me honestly, rather than dirty trick. Instead of shocking grasp, whips are great to use with frostbite, since you'll be getting a lot of AoO's. The Lore Warden dip is always a hard decision, do you want to put off spell progression for feats? It's about an equal trade, especially when you realize that your intelligence to AC is dependent on your level.
Frostbite builds can be vicious for debuffing (and I mean VICIOUS, just look at the guide for all the debuffs you can put up), but don't deal as much damage as shocking grasp, especially if you plan on getting a lot of pearls of power.
Metamagic rods are trickey things to work around, see the guild for more info (Items-Metamagic Rods has the best work around listed)
Dimensional Agility is a little bit of a trap. It's a lot of feats, and you don't even qualify for the first one until level 10.
You can use any wand with spell combat with the wand wielder arcana. Just note that if you use a wand of shocking grasp you can't use it with spell strike, you'd have to deliver that with a regular touch attack.
I haven't seen toppling spell used much on a Magus, there just doesn't seem to be that many melee touch attack force spells.
All in all, a lot of the questions you have can be found in the guide listed.
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@ArmouredMonk13: I'm still torn about Spell Penetration vs Metamagic/spells. Ideally I'd like to have both, but I don't have a lot of feats to work with on the standard Magus build.
@FrodoOf9Fingers: Thanks for the link. I definitely enjoyed reading the guide. You did a fine job.
- Thoughts
- I noticed your penchant for Trip maneuver there, as well. I'd strongly urge you to take a look at Dirty Trick whenever working a reach/reflexes build. Truthfully, as a "side job" any maneuver that branches off of Combat Expertise pays out really well as long as you can invest 3 feats or less.
*Side Reel: I really want to find an efficient way to invest in Power Attack (so far 3 stat points is the cheapest) for the Bull Rush line.
- Thanks for clearing up about wands and rods, too. I wanted to be sure I was understanding it correctly.
- The debuff build is pretty cool. I had not thought of that before and you implement it effectively. I think GM's would want to murder me for playing it. I refer to this as "incentivizing".
- There is no mention of Piranha Strike in the Feat listing. Considering you rate the Wakizashi as the primary alternative to Scimitars it's probably worth bringing up. The bonus in DPR is better than a 2 level dip to use Elven Curved Blade with Jotungrip.
- The dip in Lore Warden is a significant jump in the Kensai's fighting techniques. I debated the loss in spells, but in the end it puts me at 7 feats by level 3. That's too much of a leg-up to ignore. Paladins don't see 7 feats until level 13 and straight Fighters won't until level 6.
- I am sad to say that I have to agree with you about Dimensional Agility and the chain to Savant. Too many feats and too late in the game to chain with spells for a Kensai build. Even with a more spell-focus build like my other one it's not that exciting. (Taking until level 15 to finish up.)
- I looked more closely at the Bladebound Magus with the Kensai. I hadn't thought to combine those archetypes before, but the result is quite striking. Being able to change the damage you do to a different energy type (and even rare ones!) is one of the best for enhancing versatility. I'll want to look more closely at it.
- A note on Quick Draw and Wand Wielder. When using an Efficient Quiver to manage your Rods and Wands, Quick Draw can allow you to take full advantage of UMD for things like Lead Blades, Shield, Vanish, Heroism, etc... This allows you to always make the best use of the Magus' primary advantage: action economy. This is more important for a Kensai since you don't get to recycle spells with Spell Recall. It also makes Skill Focus(UMD) valuable to offset the poor Charisma score.
- Metamagic is a tricky one. I have a lot of thinking still to do here, but I have to disagree with any metamagic feat that requires more than +2 adjustment being rated over Yellow. As a Kensai in particular you cannot afford to screw around with spell levels. You only get 6. Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasp is Level 5 and you have to be 13 to do it once. Empowered Intensified is only Level 3 (with a trait in that specific spell) and you still have to be level 7 to do it once. Metamagic is not the Kensai's forte and if the cost for the feat is over +1 then seriously reconsider taking it. If you get to Spell Perfection then it pays out for ONE spell. If you were going to focus on Spell casting you're not playing a Kensai. <.<
Thanks again for looking my builds over. Any ideas on rearranging the level blending, or feat tweaking?
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For the Kensai, why are you getting Close Range? Is it for a limitless touch attack spell? If so, grab spell blending instead.
Can you perform dirty tricks at range with a whip? "You can attempt to hinder a foe in melee as a standard action." Since it doesn't use your weapon for dirty tricks, you'd be limited to your natural reach. Trip is better for damage, for the AoO's, but your probably going for the utility of Dirty Trick. Of course, you could be meaning to use wand wielder+wand of truestrike+dirty trick...
With a high intelligence, Arcane Accuracy might be more worth it than Maneuver Magus. Though you'd lose out on damage from arcane strike, but you'd use it when you do dirty tricks so it won't be too bad. Not to mention you don't have anything to spend your arcane pool on anyways (Would you really want to maximize the damage dice of your whip? Improving the critical multiplier will be a rare occurrence too)
Bull rushing is hard to pull off as a dexterity character. You'd be looking at grabbing the agile maneuvers feat, because you don't use your weapon for a bull rush (unless you got bull rush strike, but that's only on a critical). But true strike + bull rush is a powerful combination. You might also have better luck with drag, since trip weapons are used in drags, removing the need for Agile Maneuvers.
Stats are the easiest way to get the 13 strength required. I can't think of any other way that'd be worth it in fact.
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@FrodoOf9Fingers: The Efficient Quiver debate is one I'd love to have resolved. The rules say you can produce items from the quiver as per normal quiver or scabbard, which have no entry I have found in Pathfinder. With the ambiguity I would say definitely go with spring loaded wrist sheaths for things you use routinely and efficient quiver to access anything else.
Looking over Combat Maneuvers raised a question for me. Which maneuvers can and cannot be used by a weapon? Individual listings do not specify. Sunder is as vague as Grapple on this subject. It is spelled out that you can Trip with anything, but Overrun? Bull Rush? It would be silly (and kinda cool: Attack of Opportunity to crack the whip and send a goon flying into the wall). Maybe someone can clarify. I don't think the melee range qualifier is a problem, though, since you have to make a melee attack to hit them with the whip in the first place. They are already within melee range. I do like the utility with Dirty Trick, but mostly with Trip I feel that either you trivialize the encounter completely (everything ends up on the ground where the posse kicks it to death) or it's immune and you ignore it completely. Dirty Trick just has a more versatility, that's really why I'm a fan. I can't trip the giant wasp, but I can blind it. I can't trip the Giant, but I can Entangle, Deafen, etc. If I can combine that with a 10' (15 enlarged) threatened area and do it for free because you provoked an AoO then I call that value, which is desperately needed after spending 4 feats on the whip and 3 feats on the maneuvers. :(
I was definitely thinking of using wands to True Strike as many maneuvers as I felt inclined, at reach from pesky AoO's and guarantee my important ones landed. That chain of thinking is what made me wonder if I could broaden the potential Maneuver pool to the Power Attack line cheaply.
Now, my thoughts on Close Range Arcana were pretty straightforward. Deliver more spells with Spell Strike, giving me more options. I like options. I went back through the spell list and realized that there are very few ranged touch spells, and none of the really good ones. Thanks for bringing that up. I'll have to find something more useful to do with that slot.
Kensai gets automatic proficiency in a weapon of your choice. It can be an exotic weapon, such as a wakizashi.
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For your unarchetyped suggestion, I'd change it to a Strength-based character personally, but it looks pretty solid. I'd go with a straight magus and instead take the trait as something like Clever Wordplay[Use Magic Device]. If you are open to archetype suggestions for it, I'd go with either Bladebound for the free weapon, or Hexcrafter for the hexes [and Brand's free extra attack], or both. Because Hexcrafter can give some incredible utility in and out of combat [slumber anyone? flight?], and cash can get tight in PFS builds, so the more you can save, the better.
I'm currently playing a dervish dancer bladebound/hexcrafter magus and it's been lots of fun, with reduce person / shield I have 26 AC at level 4, and very high to hit and damage (not even counting SG). Also the flight hex is AMAZING, and hexcrafter gives you access to the brand cantrip, which is a non cheesy way of getting a spellstrike every round.