*TWF with Rapier/Swordbreaker Dagger. Yes, this build assumes you can use the Duelist precise strike while parrying with an off-hand attack you choose not to take. No, I hate Dervish Dance. Scimitars aren't my style. Yes, Swordbreaker Dagger is an exotic weapon, and it's not even very strong, but I've wanted to use one for a while.
*20 point buy.
*Either human, elf, or half-elf.
*Level 7 with 23,500 GP of starting gold.
*We're using traits, but we randomly generated them using the Ultimate Campaign. I'm stuck with Talented and Militia Veteran.
*Must take most pre-prestige levels in Cad Fighter.
Here's my first quick take on the character:
Thadeus Okona (yes, I'm a TNG fan)
CG Human Cad Fighter 7
Str 12
Dex 22
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 10
HP: 58 (rolled)
Init: +6
speed 30 ft.
AC 24 = 10 + 5 (armor) + 6 (Dex) + 1 (nat) + 1 (deflection) + 1 (dodge)
touch 18
FF 17
F +8
R +10
W +3
BAB +7/+2
CMB +8, +14 disarm (+16 vs. blades), +14 dirty trick
CMD 26
Attack: +12+7 (1d6+7, 18-20/x2 Agile Rapier +1) and +12 (1d4, MW Swordbreaker Dagger)
or
+14/+9 (1d6+7, 18-20/x2 Agile Rapier +1)
Acrobatics +16
Bluff +10
Climb +6
Perception +4
Perform (Oratory) +6
Stealth +14
Survival +10
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Swordbreaker Dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Greater Dirty Trick, Catch Off-Guard.
Equipment: mithril chain shirt +1, +1 agile rapier, MW swordbreaker dagger, belt of incredible Dex +2, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +2. 770 gp worth of misc rope, waterskins, etc.
I thought I'd take advantage of the Cad Fighter's level 7 ability to string out dirty tricks to keep a single opponent blind, allowing me to hit him easily while still fighting defensively and using combat expertise to avoid attacks from his allies. I realize there are a lot of other options though.
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Both Weapons unchangeable?
Is Scion of Humanity Aasimar available?
Is the archetype Unchangable?
Actually, what is unchangable?
Right now, you seem to have a "give me build advice, but don't ask me to change anything" vibe going on.
If so, then you are fine as you are, as you would not have it any other way.
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on your stats I would go
(also, do we have to use cad fighter?)
Str: 10 (since your starting at 7, earlier levels don't matter)
Dex: 18 (16+2) all stat increases here)
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Feats
1-dodge, weapon finesse, exotic weapon prof. (SBD)
2-combat expertise
3-Improved feint
4-Improved Dirty Trick
5-Improved Disarm
6-Greater Feint (for denying dex)
7-Mobility
magic items seem ok.
also, realize you can only attempt the immediate action once every 2 turns IIRC.
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I also wonder what the cad can do that a lore warden cannot, as far as dirty trick is concearned. He may have some situatinal extra opportunities to use it, but in the end lore warden is going to be better at it.
Catch off guard as a bonus feat, which will add to additional uses of dirty trick IF you attack with an improvised weapon, but this build isn't making use of that.
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here is a swashbuckler up to 20 this assumes you can use off-hand parry and still use precise strike/thrust
no magic items will be given bar agile weapon
Str:10
Dex:22(16+2+4)
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:12
Cha:8
Feats
1-Dodge, weapon focus Rapier
2- weapon finesse
3- combat expertise, Improved Initiative
5- Mobility
6- weapon spec.
7- TWF
9(duelist PRC)- exotic weapon prof SBD
11- piranha Strike
13- Lunge
15- Improved Disarm
17- Greater Disarm
19- ????,
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This interested me, but I took and entirely different tack to the build; I did a mix rogue/fighter, and made it half-elf as well.
Wynn Rabanall has been friends with Thadeus Okona since childhood. They served in the militia together, sweet-talked the same types of girls into bed, and even adopted a similar unorthodox fighting style. However, where Thadeus took a strictly martial bent, Wynn developed a more rakish personality and underhanded tendencies.
In addition to the adventuring gear he shares with Thadeus, Wynn owns a pair of Boots of Elvenkind (borrowed from dear old mom) and Mask of Stony Demeanor (ever so useful in the duels he frequently finds himself involved in...)
Wynn Rabanall
Male Half-Elf (Taldan) fighter(cad) 3/rogue(rake) 4
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +6, Senses low-light vision; Perception +8
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 17, flat-footed 23 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex, +1 natural), Combat Expertise
hp 53 ((3d10)+(4d8)+14)
Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +2, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile rapier +13/+8 (1d6+7/18-20)
Melee masterwork swordbreaker dagger +13 (1d4+1)
Melee +1 agile rapier +11/+6 (1d6+7/18-20) and masterwork swordbreaker dagger +11 (1d4+1)
Ranged acid (flask) +12/+7 (1d6)
Ranged alchemist's fire (flask) +12/+7 (1d6)
Melee broken bottle (improvised weapon) +12/7 (1d3+1)
Ranged longbow +12/+7 (1d8/x3)
Special Attacks Bravado's Blade, Sneak Attack 2d6
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TACTICS
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During Combat Wynn attempts to put his foes at a disadvantage. For his first attach, he will typically close with his foe and perform a dirty trick to blind. Once he has engaged, he may disarm their weapons with his swordbreaker and the sneak attack with an improvised weapon (such as a broken bottle). Alternatively, he may use two weapon feint to deny his opponent his dex. To even up the odds, Wynn may use bravado's blade to intimidate an opponent.
Notes Wynn's wepon bonus to hit has already been added to his disarm checks below.
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 12
Base Atk +6; CMB +12 (+17 dirty trick, +16 disarm, +20 to disarm bladed weapons with swordbreaker, +13 steal);
CMD 24 (27 vs dirty trick and disarm, 25 vs steal)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Armor Proficiency (light, shield), Catch Off-Guard, Combat Expertise, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Swordbreaker Dagger), Greater Dirty Trick, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Two-Weapon Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +21, Bluff +11 (+21 to lie, +16 to feint, +6 to pass secret messages), Climb +6, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (Local) +5, Perception +8, Perform (Oratory) +6, Ride +10, Sleight of Hand +10, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +14, Survival +8, Swim +5
Traits Militia Veteran, Talented
Languages Common, Elven, Orc
SQ ancestral arms, bonus feats, catch off-guard, dirty maneuvers, elf blood, elven immunities, keen senses, low-light vision, multitalented, rake's smile, skills, weapon and armor proficiency, weapon and armor proficiency,
Combat Gear acid (flask) (2), alchemist's fire (flask) (2), antitoxin, potion of cure light wounds (2), potion of mage armor, potion of protection from evil, potion of remove fear, potion of shield of faith +2 (2), silver weapon blanch (already applied), potion of jump, rations (trail/per day) (5)
Other Gear amulet of natural armor +1, mask of stony demeanor, masterwork swordbreaker dagger, +1 agile rapier, ring of protection +1, belt of incredible dexterity +2, cloak of resistance +1, mithral shirt +1, traveler's outfit, boots of elvenkind, belt pouch, arrows (10), arrows (20/cold iron), arrows (10/silver blanched), ioun torch, weapon cord, longbow, backpack, bedroll, flint and steel, mess kit, rope (silk/50 ft.), soap (per lb), waterskin, 83.6 gp
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Ancestral Arms Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.
Talented You gain a +1 trait bonus on checks with a single Perform skill (your choice), and all Perform skills are always class skills for you.
Bonus Feats At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called "fighter bonus feats." Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Bravado's Blade (Ex) When a rake hits an opponent and deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo 1d6 points of that damage and make a free Intimidate check to demoralize the foe. For every additional 1d6 points of sneak attack damage she forgoes, she receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Catch Off-Guard At 3rd level, the cad gains the Catch Off-Guard feat. This ability replaces armor training 1.
Dirty Maneuvers (Ex) At 2nd level, a cad becomes skilled at deceiving and discomfiting his opponents. The cad gains a +1 bonus on disarm, dirty trick, and steal combat maneuver checks. The cad also gains a +1 bonus to CMD when attacked with the disarm, dirty trick, and steal combat maneuvers. These bonuses increase by 1 for every four levels after 2nd (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level). This ability replaces bravery.
Elf Blood (Ex) Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities (Ex) Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks.
Keen Senses (Ex) Half-elves receive a +2 bonus on Perception skill checks.
Low-Light Vision (Ex) You can see x2 as far as humans in low illumination. Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-Light Vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light. Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Militia Veteran (any town or village) (Survival) Your first job was serving in a civilian militia in your home town. Skills learned through daily drilling and protecting your fellow townsfolk gave you special insight into military life. Select one of the following skills - Profession (Soldier), Ride, or Survival. You gain a +1 trait bonus on that skill, and it is always a class skill for you.
Multitalented (Ex) Half-elves choose two favored classes at first level and gain +1 hit point or +1 skill point whenever they take a level in either one of those classes.
Rake's Smile (Ex) At 3rd level, a rake gains a +1 morale bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
Skills Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex) are class skills for a cad.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. [2d6]
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A rogue with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency simple, martial, hand crossbow, swordbreaker dagger
The concept is cad fighter prestiging into duelist using a rapier and swordbreaker dagger. That part is unchangeable.
The GM has declared that only humans, elves, and half-elfs will be worked into the campaign. I can probably get by with something that can pass as human. That doesn't break the concept at all. The GM has also imposed certain campaign traits on us. Those are unchangeable.
Within those parameters, the character is 7th level, uses a 20 point buy, and the standard 23,500 GP starting wealth.
Right now, you seem to have a "give me build advice, but don't ask me to change anything" vibe going on.
I'm sorry if I'm giving off the wrong vibe. I am well aware of various duelist builds on the messageboards. I've done a little bit of research. I know about people taking barbarian and monk, or different fighter archetypes. I'm well aware of the cheese that is dervish dance, and taking monk levels for crane style feats. Surely there is more than one way to build a cad fighter using two weapons with the intent on going into Duelist.
also, realize you can only attempt the immediate action once every 2 turns IIRC.
You'll have to point out where it says that. I see the restrictions on taking an immediate action on your turn if you took an immediate action when it wasn't your turn, but you should be able to take an immediate action every turn in place of your swift action, unless I misread something.
However, playing a Swashbuckler seems promising. It has the same flavor as my Cad/Duelist, shares many of the same abilities, but would allow me to be more dashing and less smart, which fits the playstyle of this campaign. I'd be willing to drop cad and go Swashbuckler. I'll look into this to see if there is potential.
Excellent, Tangaroa. That is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping for. I'll definitely take a closer look at that one. It loses the Cad's level 7 ability, but I think it has some legitimate potential.
Whatever build you go with, if it involves Dirty Trick and you are doing a dex-focused build, consider Agile Maneuvers. While Improved Disarm may benefit from using Weapon Finesse to calculate CMB, you need Agile Maneevers for any maneuver that is not Disarm, Trip, or Sunder.
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The concept is cad fighter prestiging into duelist using a rapier and swordbreaker dagger. That part is unchangeable.
The GM has declared that only humans, elves, and half-elfs will be worked into the campaign. I can probably get by with something that can pass as human. That doesn't break the concept at all. The GM has also imposed certain campaign traits on us. Those are unchangeable.
also, realize you can only attempt the immediate action once every 2 turns IIRC.This I am not -entirely- sure on, as how immediate and swift actions work are a tad complicated for no real reason. I DO know it uses up a swift action from your next turn, if nothing else.
You'll have to point out where it says that. I see the restrictions on taking an immediate action on your turn if you took an immediate action when it wasn't your turn, but you should be able to take an immediate action every turn in place of your swift action, unless I misread something.
However, playing a Swashbuckler seems promising. It has the same flavor as my Cad/Duelist, shares many of the same abilities, but would allow me to be more dashing and less smart, which fits the playstyle of this campaign. I'd be willing to drop cad and go Swashbuckler. I'll look into this to see if there is potential.
If you want a duelist, see if your GM would allow this one. I feel it has the perfect stuff for what you want, and is my favorite "swashbuckler"
(I apologize, I am not good with links, so, you will have to copy/paste :(
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/swa shbuckler
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I also wonder what the cad can do that a lore warden cannot, as far as dirty trick is concearned. He may have some situatinal extra opportunities to use it, but in the end lore warden is going to be better at it.Catch off guard as a bonus feat, which will add to additional uses of dirty trick IF you attack with an improvised weapon, but this build isn't making use of that.I do not see how can you make viable an improvised weapon, unless the campaign ends at 4 lvls or so. Can you make it masterwork and enchance it? I see only speculations on the various threads that talk about it.
The best way would be to dip a level of Monk of the Empty Hand and use a regular weapon as an improvised weapon. The other way would be to take a Masterwork Druarble Arrow and enchant it as a weapon instead of ammunition.
Sadly, combat scabbards are not finesseable, so it's are rather large loss for a dex based character.
I'm going to go ahead and roll up two more character builds and run it by some of my gaming friends and see which one they think works the best. Thank you, everyone, for your feedback.
After rolling up the Swashbuckler, I agree that it is superior. It's a similar playstyle, though not identical, but is likely more capable of filling in the role that the party needs in a fighter. I decided against taking Two-Weapon Fighting, but still stuck with the Swordbreaker Dagger. It's a tax of two feats, but I can attempt disarms at a +18, which fits the flavor of my character, and then the next round attack at a +16, dealing 1d6+15 damage, with a crit chance of 15-20/x2 for 1d6+23. The AC is 1 point higher, and I'm more comfortable with a lower Will save because I can boost it by +3 4 times/day. The deeds are very powerful, and with the amount of damage I can dish out, and the high attack roll and crit range, I don't think I'll be running out of panache regularly, so I can take full advantage of the parry and riposte abilities while keeping enough panache in the tank to fuel precise strike and the initiative bonus.
When I first looked at the Advanced Class Guide, I just skimmed over the Swashbuckler because I saw that it was a mix of Fighter and Gunslinger, and I just assumed that it was a firearm based class. I'm glad someone forced me to take a second look at it.