Going to try and keep this brief, sorry if this is the wrong area of the forum.
Lately one of our GMs seems to be picking on me and one other player by giving misleading answers as punishment for having to ask in the first place. This is my THEORY only of course. It's hard to read, but he seems smug when I screw up after misinterpreting his answers. Not to mention his condescending tone that he uses just with us.
My experience so far in Pathfinder is leveling a cleric up to almost 7 with my boyfriend GMing, now this friend is running an evil campaign starting at level 4 so I thought I'd try playing something different and I'm now playing Alchemist/Rogue. To clarify, this is not a group that was told to read the core book before playing, this was a read about your class and learn as you go kind of endeavour.
So how much of a responsibility do I have to understand things that I honestly don't even know to go looking for? I got dinged for not knowing I could throw something further than the range said and as a result had to blow 2 hero points just to not die. I asked "What's the range" and he said "10 feet" regarding a large explosive. There has been a little bit of bow fighting in the group, but playing a cleric I found it difficult to learn the other classes during session as I was always studying spells. I've always just made sure I was within range to use anything
I know he gets annoyed with how many questions I ask him between games on facebook, (a friend mentioned he complained) but he's never said anything or requested that I be a little more independant. Most of the time I don't even know what terms to search to answer my question. Not to mention GM rulings. I've also tried a few times to say sorry for all the questions and he doesn't say anything.
I guess I just want to know if I'm in the wrong for not helping myself enough, or if he should be more communicative. He's been gaming for years and it's all new to me, I never feel like I know if I'm doing anything right with him, I've never had any indication that I'm getting something right. I don't feel this way with the other 2 GMs' campaigns.
Damn this did get long winded. Sorry for drama and whining. Some insight, especially from other GMs, would be appreciated. I want to be a considerate player, but I don't want to play if I'm just going to feel antagonized and singled out.
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Hey Great Escapist, reading about your situation registers on a few levels for me and though I may not know the entire story there are a few red flags that speak to me.
1. Its seems like you and your boyfriend are not having fun. Isn't that the point!?! To have friends get together, have some fun playing a game they are all interested in or love. I wonder if the other players at your table are having fun as well.
2. The Core Rulebook is over 570+ pages and to expect any player to know the entire book starting out the game is unreasonable. So your GM has asked you all to become familiar with your classes. Regardless of frequency I would rather get more questions between sessions that no questions at all. It proves you want to learn, have an interest, and are seeking to master down the rules. The fact that there appears to be a lack of communication is not a good sign as it could mean that the GM is not having fun, or his version of fun is more of a GM vs. players mentality, or that he cannot be honest with his players on how he feels things are going.Open communication needs to be established between all members of the game so that everyone feels that they can communicate any concerns they may have or even how well they feel things are going.
3. I do not believe in punishing players. In this statement I am referring to tapping into their resources, and in your case referring to the use of spending 2 hero points for the ranged attack. You are not a child, nor a pet, and by enforcing such a decision simply due to a lack of rules knowledge does not support any feelings of communication or group success.
Pathfinder is a collective story-telling game where there are no winners or losers but friends who come together to tell a story. I am curious as to how the other players feel, as well as how your boyfriend feels. Should this continue I urge you and your boyfriend to find a different group to play with, one that is much more open and inviting to newer players. Hope this helps somewhat.
Sounds like you got it right in the title. I've been an off an on GM for twenty years, the first ten of which I was totally awful. This sounds a lot like my style back then.
I'm assuming by the title that you are female, apologies if that is incorrect. If so, are you the only female gamer in your group? I've seen some male dominated groups get a bit strange when a female was included. No idea why, but it's happened before.
Perhaps the new GM is rusty, and needs a bit of practice? He sounds impatient towards your knowledge level, without specifically giving you much information on how to correct that.
As a GM, a player showing ANY interest between games, especially interest in polishing up game knowledge is exciting. Realistically what else can you do?
You might try pulling the GM aside and asking what you could do to alleviate the situation, though it sounds like you already have.
Good luck! This sounds like a difficult situation!
I will say a few things:
1) If what you're supposing is correct, it's not proper GM behavior. I'm a fairly new players (6 months), AND i've just started GM-ing. I do make mistakes, others will make mistakes, so I wont hold it against them. However, try to keep it at the table. It can get irritating to have to deal with frequent questions off the table. Might be easier to ask "are you ready to take 10-15 minutes before the game to answer a few questions?".
2) Pathfinder is a COMPLICATED system. There are many far more simple systems to start out with, so expect an uphill battle. The best way I've found to familiarize myself is to mess around with character building. I built a bunch of characters for the fun of it, and came to the forums when stuff was unclear.
3) Some GMs arent nice. I play at a gaming club and another table playing near mine this sunday had the GM get pissed off & leave because the players werent doing what he wanted. They are all human, so expect human weaknesses.
4) Come to the forums! While there are a few jerks, most of us are friendly and glad to answer questions, even those you might think are just TOO simple.
Good luck with the situation, hopefully it can resolve peacefully.
First: It's natural to feel confused. Pathfinder is a complicated system that takes a while to get used to. The book is big enough that (unless you have an eidactic memory) most of us read it once or twice, pick up the stuff that's important to us, and learn the rest of the details from years of experience. There are introductions to the system that give you chunks of the rules at a time (the rulebook and player manual in the Beginner Box) but otherwise things get a bit deep and murky.
It sounds like the GM set certain expectations (don't worry about understanding the system right away- we'll learn as we go) but found it more difficult to follow through on than he thought. If the confusion around not knowing the system is impacting your ability to enjoy the game, then I'd recommend that you go ahead and start reading as you can.
I can't say if your GM actually enjoys withholding stuff or not. That's really something only the members of your group (who are actually there to see it) are going to be able to tell you. I can point out a few things about the system that suggest otherwise, but otherwise I wouldn't know.
1. You've chosen to play a complicated character. It's by far not the most complicated character someone could produce in this system, but it takes some system mastery to play well. Playing a magic user effectively means understanding what each spell does and when to choose it. This takes time and experience to judge. Alchemists aren't full casters (they don't get 9 levels of spells like clerics and wizards do) but they have a lot of goodies that make them complicated to use. They're found in the Advanced Player's Guide, after all. ;) Rogues are simpler to play, but multiclassing any two classes together is complicated all on its own. In D&D 3.5, multiclassing gave you the most powerful and versatile kinds of character. Pathfinder is structured so that the most effective character are usually "pure," taking levels in only one class.
2. There are a lot of terms in Pathfinder that have a particular meaning given to them by the rules, and someone who has been playing for a while gets so use to them that they forget other folks won't necessarily understand what they mean. If you asked me for the range of a dagger, I'd tell you 10 feet. If you asked me how far you could throw a dagger, I'd give you a different answer. This sort of thing gets so ingrained in us old hands that we don't even realize how long ago we stopped making sense.
Presuming your GM will allow you to play a different character, you might find it easier to play something else. The easiest (and most effective!) character it's possible to build in Pathfinder is a fighter-type guy using two hands to swing a big sword. These kinds of characters need three things: a high strength, a 'two handed weapon' (Earthbreaker, Greatsword, and Falchion are the popular choices), and the Power Attack Feat. Every other feat you pick is gravy. The most effective class for this type of character would be the Barbarian, but Fighters, Paladins, Cavaliers, Rangers, Samurai, and other warrior-type classes are pretty good for it too. If you just want to deal damage, go with Barbarian. If you want something closer to your old character, check out the Ranger archetype "Urban Ranger." (Archetypes are explained in the Advanced Player's Guide. You'll probably want your GM or an experienced player to help with that part.) Urban Rangers are designed to be an up-front fighter version of the sneaky rogue. This kind of ranger can search for traps like a Rogue. Since it's a Ranger, it has almost as many skill points as a Rogue. It's basically a version of Aragorn who took up a side business as a burglar. The only thing you'd be giving up is the sneak attack damage, but you're getting it back by power attacking with a two handed weapon. You won't have the tactical problems that Rogues would when trying to get into flanking (though flanking is still a good thing for you to get- it gives a +2 to your attack). Urban Rangers have escape artist as a class skill, so it even lets you continue being The Great Escapist. ^_^
Essential Reference:
Pathfinder PRD - The Official Reference Document. All the Core Books, Now Online!
Pathfinder SRD - The Unofficial Reference Document. It's organized by subject instead of what book things are found in.
Your fastest way to find something is probably google though. "Pathfinder (Insert subject here)"
If you have an iPad, check out an app called the PFRPG. It's like having the PRD offline. It makes searching quick (though honestly the search feature could use improvement... but it's still totally worth it)
Helpful Reading:
•So you want to play Pathfinder RPG: A comprehensive guide for Dungeon Masters and Players
•Ashiel's Guide to Adventure: Preparation, Tricks, and Strategies
•Improving Your Class With Items
•The Forge of Combat: Thoughts on victory and how the group achieves it.
•Getting X to Y: How to make a stat do other things
Advanced Forge of Combat: The Tactics 101 Tutorials
The GM should be trying to help you if you're a new player. The only thing I can think of that might be upsetting the GM is if your unfamiliarity with your class/the rules is really slowing down play.
If that is the case, I would recommend brushing up on the rules that are sure to come up often, and then write down the important bits on a index card so you can have it handy without having to look through the book or ask.
As far as in-between sessions, the GM may be incredibly busy and feel like he is spending too much time on your questions. The forums are a great resource for rules questions in-between sessions.
Best of luck.
I will say a few things:
1) If what you're supposing is correct, it's not proper GM behavior. I'm a fairly new players (6 months), AND i've just started GM-ing. I do make mistakes, others will make mistakes, so I wont hold it against them. However, try to keep it at the table. It can get irritating to have to deal with frequent questions off the table. Might be easier to ask "are you ready to take 10-15 minutes before the game to answer a few questions?".
2) Pathfinder is a COMPLICATED system. There are many far more simple systems to start out with, so expect an uphill battle. The best way I've found to familiarize myself is to mess around with character building. I built a bunch of characters for the fun of it, and came to the forums when stuff was unclear.
3) Some GMs arent nice. I play at a gaming club and another table playing near mine this sunday had the GM get pissed off & leave because the players werent doing what he wanted. They are all human, so expect human weaknesses.
4) Come to the forums! While there are a few jerks, most of us are friendly and glad to answer questions, even those you might think are just TOO simple.
Good luck with the situation, hopefully it can resolve peacefully.
That right there is why I don't play humans,
Elves don't make those silly human mistakes
While RPGs like D&D and Pathfinder do have rulebooks, in many ways those 'tomes' are more like reference documents than instruction manuals. In my experience, most people learn the bulk about how to play from fellow players than they do by reading the rulebooks — that's certainly how I learned, and also how I've taught others. It makes me wonder if your GM learned under a more antagonistic mentor...
If so, it could be a case of you and the GM having different expectations over how new players can and should learn the game: mentorship vs self-study. While no single method is the best for everyone, this may be a case of you two having different learning styles and not anticipating the other's needs and limitations. Heck, it could be as simple a thing as an extreme introvert feeling drained by too much extra-curricular social contact — hard to say from here.
While finding another, more supportive GM might be ideal, that's not always feasible. Another option might be to play thru and even run some solo adventures with your boyfriend using the rules in the Beginner's Box. While the BB lacks things such as combat maneuvers and attacks of opportunity, it will still acclimate you to the core gameplay and how to read various stat entries. After you feel confident with that, read thru the Combat chapter in the Core Rulebook and go thru the paces of seeing how everything works. If you guys get stumped by something... well, you already know that you can come on these forums to ask questions. :)
Also, as my own GF recently pointed out, starting at 4th level presents a much steeper learning curve than starting at 1st. You've got twice as many spells to read thru, at least twice as many feats to consider, and if you're multiclassing that's another doubling of the knowledge you need up-front. That's no small task, so you might very well consider approaching the GM for a "redo" as a compromise — I'm sure some folks on these boards could help you "stat-up" a simpler character to match the concept you have in mind.
Anyway, good luck, let us know how things go, and don't be afraid to ask questions!
Wow. Just wow. I guess this community is pretty sweet, thanks so much for all the answers guys. I think I might have connected something actually, in reading it all. I'm super confident in character building, I've been starting to help our 2 pathfinder gms stat out NPCs even, and I've been helping other players bring backstory into their own characters (made up a big google doc for everyone and it thrives) Outside of session I feel like a boss, to be honest, it's only in game, and under that one GM where suddenly I have this huge gap in understanding. And I think I just get psyched out and it gets worse.
To be fair, I have been rolling an unnervingly consistent batch of 2s to 9s for the past several sessions (different dice, occasional explosive crits) so that's not helping.
Maybe I just don't understand actions and the physical world i'm trying to imagine very well? I used a grappling hook to climb a 10 foot wall (which he smirked at, I still don't know why) so I could sneak around and flank with a crossbow, thinking I could get sneak attack on that because the targets were heading to the melee at the front gate (looking away), he said "No, you can't sneak up on them, just assume everyone knows where you are" and bam, there goes the Rogue research I did, thinking I understood sneak attack. It's little moments like that where I just don't feel any support for the attempts I make, like "oh that's not quite how it works, for x reasons, good try though." so to make sure I get it right I just ask for info. Maybe he used to be better for this though, and stopped because I wore him down by bugging him a lot. Who knows, two sides to every story and all.
I was really excited to try something new, with Alchemist 3/Rogue 1 and I was encouraged because it's a fun idea, I even have an alright understanding of crafting, but I'm so turned off at this point that I really just don't feel up to the challenge of learning something new under his control.
--- Moophe: how did you guess? We actually have three chicks but only 2 of us have been playing Pathfinder, the other pathfinding girl speaks with the gm a lot online (the three of us used to be really close and we'd all fangirl/fanboy over fun sounding builds - she actually introduced him to our group) and she's the other person he's been a little condescending to. I didn't want to play the sexist card on someone who is supposed to be a buddy, but if I psychoanalyze just a little I suspect this is a bit of a superiority thing. He's had some rough times, socially, in the past few years and I think the confidence he's gained being with our group (usually a very warm atmosphere) has had the unforunate side effect of him wanting to exercise domination over more submissive parties. The alpha males in the group aren't viable options, the other GM isn't because he created the world and he and i own the house we game in, so it's just the two girls that he's had a lot of exposure to. The guy has had a rough time, I'm older and didn't mind tolerating the phase for a little while. I'm done though.
--- Mystically Inclined: first thanks for the reading material! I've recently discovered guides online (something I didn't know would exist) and i think that'll help me a lot (found out that my Air and Weather Cleric of Gozreh is pretty underpowered, and a 6pt race no less :P Ah well, she has a good story.) And I was thinking the "range" example was a bad one as i wrote it, it was the only specific thing i could think of. Even just in a workplace you use lingo that a layman couldn't get, and it's damn near a full language barrier when a 10 yrs Pathfinder veteran tries to explain something to a person who gamed so little they never even played Mario Kart growing up. That said though, I've tried to point this out to him a lot of times, and he seemed to understand. And I really don't want to put it on the GM to always read my intent over my words, but I think he knew in that case.
--- Laithoron: I actually think you have it bang on the money with your introvert theory. Maybe I should have picked up on that a little sooner and cut the guy a break, I've seen lots of proof that he doesn't tend to face up to issues very bluntly. And I think you're right with two different learning styles, I actually have a more observational, pattern-finding learning style as opposed to his independant study. I do understand a lot of what I'm doing though, for the record, getting to Cleric 7 and I play her quite well, this is just my first time really using weapons over casting and it's a whole new set of rules I didn't really get to learning in the beginning phase.
--- The Beard: I was actually trying to do a stealth check at the time. I thought that was weird. Thanks for clearing that up.
Must go, but I will check again shortly, thanks again everyone! I might have more specific answers to add.
I will come here in the future for help with things, you guys have been really supportive even in the span of a few hours.
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Maybe I just don't understand actions and the physical world i'm trying to imagine very well? I used a grappling hook to climb a 10 foot wall (which he smirked at, I still don't know why) so I could sneak around and flank with a crossbow, thinking I could get sneak attack on that because the targets were heading to the melee at the front gate (looking away), he said "No, you can't sneak up on them, just assume everyone knows where you are" and bam, there goes the Rogue research I did, thinking I understood sneak attack.
Well, I will point one thing out here. Attacking an enemy from stealth will in fact allow you to get a sneak attack off on them, as they are considered flat footed due to unawareness. Your GM should have asked you to do a stealth roll versus their perceptions, and any of them that failed would be vulnerable. Technically you can't gain flanking using a ranged weapon under normal circumstances, but as stated before, that's largely irrelevant if they're caught flat footed by not catching you slipping around.
True. However, stealth in Pathfinder is very funky. Was it day (bright light conditions)? If so, you autofailed your stealth roll and everyone saw you. You still could have gotten stealth by approaching in a direction that they weren't expecting (who looks up?) but it's a GM decision.
There tend to be two extremes in GMing. On one hand, you have the story-centric GM, who barely ever rolls and barely ever uses tokens on a matt. It's all description and character interaction, and most of the time the "Rule of Cool" takes precedence over the "Rules as Written" (RAW). If your character wants to do some crazy stunt and it's fun, the 'how does this happen?' part gets handwaived. Even the most day to day stuff like shopping for supplies is a chance for the characters to roleplay and interact with the world around them. On the other hand, you have the GMs who are very into the tactical and combat aspects of the game. RAW is life, and games that don't involve tokens on a map aren't worth playing. The game is all about the challenge that the characters have to overcome in combat. (Have to? Nay! Get to!) This GM seeks to constantly push the players with thrilling combat that pits their characters against one challenge after the other. Roleplay is treated as the threadbare strings connecting one exhilirating combat to the next.
In the middle is where the real world GM's actually reside. Each GM plays up the aspects they like and plays down the aspects they don't. Some GMs are very story focussed, but love putting players into situations where they can lose, and where things can go disastrously wrong. Some GM's enjoy a lot of tactical battle but still think the Rule of Cool should be King. Most GM's tend to give both the story and combat a fair shake to the best of their ability.
It sounds like your GM leans towards a very rules-centric view of the world. If that's the case, his idea of having you learn as you go along might be reducing the challenges to account for any mistakes made. The party can be challenged, but still triumph and overcome the trial despite being new to the system.
*Shrugs* It's possible. It could just as easily be some other reason.
The fact that you are here asking us about this is enough.
If you and your friends were playing Risk would you have the same response to your friend?
Pathfinder is a game being played with friends. If one of your friends is acting out just talk to him about it.
In my case I would have just laughed and pointed at him and asked"Someone having a bad day?" if confronted with a condescending attitude.
For some reason us role playing game freaks want to assign too much importance to the game or our roles in it.
You guys are friends!Just say "You are acting so weird man! Don't make me have to start flicking all your dice off the table!"
Pathfinder is a game being played with friends. If one of your friends is acting out just talk to him about it.
In my case I would have just laughed and pointed at him and asked"Someone having a bad day?" if confronted with a condescending attitude."
Haha it all started when he brought a girlfriend to the group for a little while (didn't get serious, didn't pan out) and neither me or the other girl wanted to call him out in front of a potential lady friend. We cut him a lot of slack thinking he was peacocking or nervous or nervously peacocking. They broke up, it stopped a bit, now it's back.
You're right though, I need to just talk to him, I just needed to make sure I wasn't wrong for being bothered or confused, I posted here to see if I should be apologizing to him for anything I guess.
Goldenfrog: I agree with and often recommend the "talk it out" method.
That said, maybe I'm misreading you due to the Internet's trademark lack of vocal tone and body language, but...
I would caution that getting teased by an assertive woman in front of others isn't likely to help matters if what GE surmised in her reply is accurate. While those who are more sociable might take such a comment as the "backatcha!" ribbing it's intended as, I've been around enough introverted and awkward guys to suspect that they may instead be humiliated — that's seldom a winning tactic (link) with introverts.
Just my 2cp as an introverted guy. :)
EDIT: Got ninja'd!
Asking questions OUTSIDE of the gaming session? What are you trying to do, save time by not asking them AT the session? Whoa, I mean is that uncalled for or what?
:)