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Hey All,
So currently in PFS, I have a level 8 cleric/1 monk. Due to some mechanical changes I want to change with my character, I want to switch that 1 monk level to a paladin level. However, given the strict moral codes of paladins, I am concerned how to go about roleplaying him.
Right now he is a Lawful Good cleric of Erastil. I play him as a man who used to be a hunter for his village, so he enjoys hunting. However, his primary directive in the party is to protect his party members. This means backing them up if they get into trouble, potentially lying to get into situations where he can keep an eye on them, and so forth. So he is mainly focused on the hunting/protection portion of Erastil's portfolio
With the strict following of the Paladin's code, however, I feel like my options are going to be more limited. I don't want to be forced to "sell out" my companions to stay in line with the laws.
Is there a way to play around the paladin's tight rp structure or should I look for a different class to swap out with
It sounds more like you are a Neutral Good cleric than a Lawful Good cleric.
Lawful Good
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Neutral Good
A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.
Neutral good means doing what is good and right without bias for or against order.
It all depends on what you mean by lying. If you are careful to never tell an outright lie, and just bend the truth and remain silent so people draw the wrong conclusion you could be fine. Some of the best manipulator are lawful in alignment because they know how to say one thing while meaning another. This is more common with Lawful Evil, but even Lawful Good characters can do this.
I think it come down to more of an alignment issue than a problem with the paladin’s code.
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Alignment is not a straightjacket. Characters can violate one portion of an alignment as long as they maintain most of its aspects.
Lawful Good characters can be ok with lying as long as they are otherwise concerned with justice, punishing the guilty, keeping promises, and following the Lawful aspects not specific to LG which are adherence to tradition, respecting/obeying authority, valuing duty and honour, reliability, and possibly closed-mindedness, self-righteousness, and lack of adaptability.
Normally I'd say talk to your GM, but I guess that's not possible in PFS. Maybe talk to your venture captain? I'm not familiar enough with PFS scenarios to say whether it's likely that you'll be forced to choose between your code and selling out your group. I think it'll be OK since lots of people play paladins in PFS and I don't think either falling or selling out the group is common, but maybe someone else will have more specific insight.
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Alignment is not a straightjacket. Characters can violate one portion of an alignment as long as they maintain most of its aspects.
Lawful Good characters can be ok with lying sometimes as long as they are otherwise concerned with justice, punishing the guilty, keeping promises, and following the Lawful aspects not specific to LG which are adherence to tradition, respecting/obeying authority, valuing duty and honour, reliability, and possibly closed-mindedness, self-righteousness, and lack of adaptability.
Normally I'd say talk to your GM, but I guess that's not possible in PFS. YMaybe talk to your venture captain?. I'm not familiar enough with PFS scenarios to say whether it's likely that you'll be forced to choose between your code and selling out your group. I think it'll be OK since lots of people play paladins in PFS and I don't think either falling or selling out the group is common, but maybe someone else will have more specific insight.
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Yeah I was hoping most people would be lenient. I was going for the Lawful Good as more of a strict personal morale code than the local laws of the government, which can vary from place to place. I just wanted to see if others shared the same sentiment of changing it up from the default overbearing perfect citizen justice man
I haven't lied much in scenarios, just a few where I otherwise would have been separated from my group had I not. From now on I will try to tell simple truths that are hard to convey one way or another
Thanks for the replies.
I might have missed something but..
How are you changing the level monk into paladin? As I understood it you can't change a pc after 2nd level. Or didn't you play him as monk?
Alignment is not a straightjacket. Characters can violate one portion of an alignment as long as they maintain most of its aspects.
Lawful Good characters can be ok with lying as long as they are otherwise concerned with justice, punishing the guilty, keeping promises, and following the Lawful aspects not specific to LG which are adherence to tradition, respecting/obeying authority, valuing duty and honour, reliability, and possibly closed-mindedness, self-righteousness, and lack of adaptability.
Normally I'd say talk to your GM, but I guess that's not possible in PFS. Maybe talk to your venture captain? I'm not familiar enough with PFS scenarios to say whether it's likely that you'll be forced to choose between your code and selling out your group. I think it'll be OK since lots of people play paladins in PFS and I don't think either falling or selling out the group is common, but maybe someone else will have more specific insight.
I agree with whatbu stated about lawful good but lying is just against the paladins code. Its not an alignment issue with the lying part but its an issue with the paladins code. The code states that they must speak truthfully so the paladin would be against lying but that doesnt man he has to answer all questions. If someone asks him a question that would jeoperdize theparty or friends, he doesnt have to answer.
Now this part is purely my opionion but i believe with paladins being the paragon of good and whatbthe code states, i believe ur wanting to be manipalitive, then i would pick a different class for that level or stay with monk. Because imo with paladins being paragons of good and the code stating to speak truthfully, i think that cuts alot of manipulating out of the picture because u are seen as the example of that deity so being the face of that deity u are under more scrutnity to appear and act more inline than say clerics or law enforcements etc etc would act. Again thats purely my opionion though and u take it with a grain of salt.
The paladin code is in essence a warrior's reading of the LG alignment, and lying is in general against either. Typically, a lawful person keeps her word and tells the truth, and speaking plainly is iirc one of the virtues Erastil is quite keen on. Generally speaking, if your behavior falls under the LG category, you do not like lying and you don't lie unless it is essentially necessary (in the OP's case, if your party members would never, ever let you keep an eye on them otherwise). Unless the party members would be extremely hurt by the character's telling them, they should be told.
PF made a slight tweak to paladins in that before, they had to make a gross violation of the code to fall, which implied that minor lies or those done for a higher purpose (i.e. shelter victims under a repressive regime) were excusable. One of my less than favourite developments in PFRPG is that the "gross" part was removed and technically paladins can fall even for minor violations of the code. To me, this is inappropriate, especially as the restrictions are eased elsewhere. Paladins can now pal around with evil types if it is necessary, but cannot tell the agents of the evil king "I have not seen any Sarenraens" :/
Anyway, yes, strictly by the book the paladin should not lie, so the character will either have to tell his mates he wants to keep an eye out on them in case they need backup or somesuch, or just not tell them and do it regardless.
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I agree with whatbu stated about lawful good but lying is just against the paladins code. Its not an alignment issue with the lying part but its an issue with the paladins code.
Perhaps it wasn't clear, but I was specifically responding to Mysterious Stranger's comment: "It sounds more like you are a Neutral Good cleric than a Lawful Good cleric.... I think it come down to more of an alignment issue than a problem with the paladin’s code." Since LG characters can lie, it's absolutely an issue of the code specifically forbidding lying rather than a general alignment issue.
How strictly the code is applied varies a bit among tables - RAW says any violation is grounds for a fall, but some like The Shaman and myself prefer to stick with the "gross violation" required by 3E. PFS tends to be strict RAW but I've also seen PFS GMs on the boards say that they are more lenient with PFS paladins than those in home games (I think the reasoning was that a redemption arc is harder to implement). It's safer as a player to be super-strict about following the code, and safest to ask the GM about their expectations.