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Who has advice for Monsters as PCs?

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My group and I were recently discussing the possibility of using the monsters as PCs rules presented in the Bestiary for a campaign to mix things up a little, we're working on the "party alignment" so to speak, but we're pretty lenient about that. The only set restrictions we agreed on are:

1. Must have a listed Int over 4.

2. Must be CR 5 or lower. If lower, add appropriate number of class levels of players choice. And,

3. Templates like young or fey animal are allowed to keep the chosen monster at the same CR as the party.

My questions here are twofold. First, what would you play, given these options? And, what do you recommend choosing? I'm leaning towards, Nightmare (CR 5), or, Half-Fiend Quickling of undetermined class (CR 3+1+1 level in a class with good DEX synergy).

TL;DR: What CR 5 monster with 5 or more Int would you play as, and what would you recommend picking?
Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

There was a picture in an old school D&D book, I forget which, although I'm positive I have it somewhere. In this picture there is a Minotaur (a true Minotaur mind you, man body, cow head, not furry and cloven hooves like modern silly minotaurs). This Minotaur had a huge double bladed axe in one hand, and was starting to cast a spell with the other, in days past, you'd have had to do him as fighter-wizard maybe, but I think a magus would do him fine now. That's what I'd play.

My next option is based on this picture of a centaur and I think would make for an awesome ranger.

If you are planning doing a 'monster'-focused campaign, you should check out the 3.0 book Savage Species if you can. Not everything in it was implemented particularly well, but it did have a lot of good ideas, many of which are equally applicable in Pathfinder.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Drow noble with at-will cure light wounds and fireball spell-like abilities.
Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
Ravingdork wrote:
Drow noble with at-will cure light wounds and fireball spell-like abilities.

Not a fan of having SR as a PC myself.

You'll still want to keep party composition the same, kinda.

Someone needs to be up front doing damage, someone needs to help out with battlefield control, someone needs to do ranged damage, and someone needs to be utility.

For secondary roles, you won't go wrong if one person is athletic, another social, and a third smart.

And no way I pick a race without hands. Unless I get tentacles, but I refuse to build a character that can't turn a doorknob.

And I'd go with awakened gorilla with the giant template, pseudo dragon sorcerer, or ogre barbarian.

Harpy bard archer would be effective, but doesn't appeal to me.

Young redcap might compete...or catfolk were tiger ranger...
Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
Anonymous Visitor 163 576 wrote:
And I'd go with awakened gorilla with the giant template, pseudo dragon sorcerer, or ogre barbarian.

The Derhii are canon if you're not opposed to intelligent flying gorillas.

Zahir's sarcasm reflects my thoughts: monsters are monsters; if you want an alternate PC race, build it via ARG with a focus on balance with other characters. Or just disallow them. What are you trying to accomplish?

I hate the term "monster PC" because of how it is applied. I mean, Drow and Ogres kind of only count as monsters due to their behavior, put them in a PC's hands and have a PC behave as a PC and they aren't really any more "monstrous" than a dozen other PC races. So basically any small, medium or large sized humanoid just counts as an unusual race rather than a monster... although some of those races come with powers or abilities that kind of upset how certain classes are meant to work. But the term "monster PC" never should have be applied to an Orc Rogue or Hobgoblin Barbarian or Kobold Sorcerer.

Well, I suppose there are some things that one could loosely define as humanoids, but are naturally inclined towards doing evil things. Demons, devils, vampires, ghouls, werecreatures.... here there has always been a big, big problem because unless someone came up with something somewhere, there have never properly been mechanics within the system that would enforce or reward anyone playing these things the way they are meant to be played. Instead these kinds of evil-inclined beings end up being used as ways for PCs to give their characters pretty substantial free power boosts without suffering any of the ill effects, penalties or drawbacks that come with being one of these kinds of things. Yes, you might be vulnerable to silver, as if that ever comes up in normal play, but you don't go insane during the full moon and savagely ravage everything around you. Which presents an unsettling question about why everyone else who ever got turned into a vampire or werecreature did turn evil. No-- if it is going to be done properly, there is a mechanical niche that someone failed to fill.

And then there are those things that are really just animate objects with no will of their own. Skeletons? Golems? Zombies? Most elementals? The whole concept behind these things is that they haven't much in the way of will or ambition or drive or personality in and of themselves... they just have some basic, let us say, "programing" to them that causes them to behave in a very direct and simplistic manner. In this case, there really isn't any "playing" this sort of thing-- a player of one would be so limited on choices that there wouldn't be much for them to do.

Now, if you are playing some sort of animal PC, even if it is an animal that doesn't exist and has abilities normal animals don't, well... that's another issue. I would question to what degree someone could really play an animal. Plus, the way the classes are set up, they don't really apply to animals. You can't honestly have an Owlbear Fighter or an Owlbear Wizard because just being an Owlbear kind of precludes some basic assumptions the class makes when assigning powers and abilities. You kind of need a separate "animal" class to handle their level gain. This also applies to Dragons, though you might want to handle a Dragon's levels differently from a Bear's levels perhaps.

Bronze Wyrmling

or

Very Young Brass Dragon

Now, I'm not necessarily saying these choices will be super effective... but how often do you get to adventure as a f@%@ing dragon? Worst case scenario they turn out to not work well enough in the party and either die or 'retire' from adventuring while you replace them with a more suitable PC.

Quickling. I was originally going to say rogue, but Magus just popped into my head and I wonder if they would be any good at it. Or a Dawnflower Dervish bard. That would be pretty awesome. And they're only CR2 to boot.

Lyrakien bard 3.

Lyrakien musket master or pistolero 3 if I expect to go up a few levels.

Pugwampi (insert arcane caster) 5. Turn invisible, walk right into the enemy group, do nothing and watch as chaos reigns.
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A hungry ghost wight monk with feral combat training. Slay your enemies, those that return were clearly so impressed by your style that they came back to learn. begin teaching your new pupil. Although the campign will swiftly implode with your unlimited number of spawn who slavishly follow your commands.

There was just a thread about this for CR 2. Lots of good advice on how to bump lower CR creatures up. Also, as I stated in the thread:Lantern Archon! With the Missing Template too, because Navi wan't annoying enough already.

Pixie Anything

Seriously, constant greater invisibility, flight, DR and SR? Count me in! Though spellcasters work best, i really would try to build something martial, just for the look on the GMs face when he realizes that Tinkerbell over ther just knocked his guys around.
Abyssian wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish?

Er, fun? Isn't that the important thing? We just thought it'd be fun to play as a monster, and picked a low-ish CR to make it fair.

Leaning towards Half-fiend Quickling more now. 28 Dex? Flight at that speed? Yes, please. just need a good class, though.

Monk. You'll top out your speed at 180. (A one level each dip in barbarian and traveler domain cleric will get it up to 200) Go maneuver master archetype and take crane, snake and panther. Run around provoking AoO and gob-smack the ones stupid enough to take a swing at you. Plus, when you stop moving to full attack, you go invisible. Also, Dimensional Dervish chain, anyone? :)

BTW, I have a build for this guy if you're interested in what he'd look like at level 20.

Sure thing! The better abuse of a 24 dex (28 with half-fiend) the better. Barbarian dip would help out the incredibly unimpressive str, too.

I keep imagining a twitching psychopath, and that pleases me.

I built him with the half dragon template with an eye to fixing that. I also invested in overrun feats and items, I thought the idea of a crazy midget running people over and kicking them in the face was amusing. I'm a cruel GM... >;)

I'll post him in a minute, just need to switch computers.

half-dragon could be sweet.

I want to GM a game where the PC's are (younger?) Dragons where some evil adventures (heroic adventurers or something) murdered the momma dragon and they want revenge... might run this after the PC's kill a random dragon in a campaign after the end (after bbeg before conclusion)

A half-fiend mite would just be hilarious.
Green Smashomancer wrote:
Abyssian wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish?

Er, fun? Isn't that the important thing? We just thought it'd be fun to play as a monster, and picked a low-ish CR to make it fair.

Leaning towards Half-fiend Quickling more now. 28 Dex? Flight at that speed? Yes, please. just need a good class, though.

Pistolero. : D

Make something that is diminutive with lots of Dr laugh as GM can't touch you ... might have to make a spell caster so you can actually do damage...

Now I'm imagining a flea shooting a maximized fireball and flying backwards from the force or casting it (I know it doesn't work like that but be funny)

Here's the Quickling.

*edit*

Oops, that copy is only half done. The full copy is on my phone app, I just recalled. I'll see if I can't copy him over to RD's template today and post it tonight.

Advice for Monsters as PCs:

1) Don't rely on your good looks, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2) Human proportions can be a pain. Watch for low ceilings.
3) Use a stool instead of a chair; they're less prone to spontaneous collapse.
4) Piecemeal armor is your friend; with just a little adjustment, that hauberk can double as a glove.
5) Tinfoil hats are handy if there's a paladin sniffing around with detect evil.

The above was not the quickling you are looking for...

THIS is the quickling you are looking for!

*Edit* If a Mod could remove the above link to avoid confusion, that'd would be great! Thanks!

Don't know if it helps, but the story currently in the pipeline is pretty simple, This group of monsters is defending their collective lair from/hunting down, groups of adventurers. And apparently I'll be joined by a

  • Gender-Confused Harpy
  • and a mimic that pretends it's a sword.

    Part of the reason I was thinking Nightmare, was so I could be a kick-ass mount for the harpy, and the mimic is "her" sword.

    And that's a fast Quickling. Overrun, hehe...
    Not sure the chances I'll get high enough level for most of that though. Would you recommend the dip classes first?

    •
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    Well, starting things off with a level of barb is never a bad idea. That's the way I'd go. Following that with the cleric level for better will save and early healing? Sure, not a bad way to start.
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