I've been suiting up to play my first Pathfinder campaign and I thought to myself, "Self, you're going to play a Bard because your friends always cover the pure melee and magic portions of the group and, well, you're most entertained playing such a role." This time, however, I've noticed several amazing differences between dnd 3.5 Bards and this one. So then I thought to myself, "Self, do something a bit different this time." At which point I stumbled upon the different feats and roles and boom: Cavalier crossed my happy little eyes (not that you needed ANY of this introduction!). My question is as follows; if I want to make a control Bard that is a sufficient third-string meleer, is what I have down here the way to go? Is there a more efficient build? We're starting out at level ii if that makes any difference in the world.
I want to preface this and say I know I shouldn't have Discordant Voice so early... but the DM is introducing a cool system with the skill points that allows me to meet the reqs.
Female Human Bard/Cavalier combo test run
22 point buy in: 13, 17 (+2 from Human), 9, 13, 10, 16
Worshipping: Cayden Cailen
Starting Gear: rapier, whip, shortbow, arrows, heavy wood/steel sheild (haven't decided yet), chain shirt, entertainer's outfit (a lady doesn't walk around with her protective undershirt hanging out, olololo)
Fun flavor fact: I'm having her skylight as a stand-up comic. I'm an open-micer myself and what better way to test bits I'm unsure of than in front of four nerds for fake gold, right?
Level I: Bard I, Weapon Focus (rapier), Weapon Finesse
Level II: Cav I, Order of the Cockatrice, Precise Strike (Tactition team feat)
Level III: Cav II, Dazzling Display (Order feat), Dramatic Display
Level IV: Bard II, Versatile Performance (Comedy)
Level V: Bard III, Discordant Voice
Level VI: Cav III
Level VII: Bard IV (lvl2spellsyay), Lingering Performance
Level VIII: Cav IV
Level IX: Cav V, Improved Critical (rapier)
Level X: Cav VI, Critical Focus (bonus feat)
Level XI: Bard V, ?maybe Bleeding Critical?
That's as far as I've gotten so far. As of lvl xi I'll be able to, if successfully rolled, have +23 to confirm crits (bab +9, wpn finesse +4, dram display +2, insp courage +2, crit focus +4, wpn focus +1, deity favored wpn +1) and +17 to trip/disarm attempts. I think maybe I'm getting trigger happy at the end there at the cost of more control options I may be overlooking. I really like Cav for the bab, fort save, and added versatility (imo) but let me know if I'm missing something. Thanks in advance.
I've looked into it and, although it would boost my inspire courage by a point, I feel it's more for Cavaliers that dip into Bard moreso than the other way around. I know it doesn't look like it from what I put up there but I'm prwtty certain xi and up are solely going to be Bard levels. I just don't know if dipping into critical feats is worth it if there are better control options.
Bard/Cavalier as a debuffer would be a pretty cool concept. Off-hand, I can't think of a way to make it work, but I do like it. Please, keep us all posted on what you come up with.
I feel like Order of the Cockatrice would be a no-brainer, maybe...what's the bard archetype with the crazy debuffing? Sorry, I'm not going to check, myself; I've been drinking and this kind of administrative work couldn't possible be for me!
Good luck, for real, though. If you need help, I'm (usually) here.
You might be thinking of the Court Bard (replaces inspire courage with mob debuff, etc) or Sandman (spell thief). I hadn't considered either; however, since having Dazzling Display lvl iii and not getting Dirge of Doom until xiii (by my current build), it may be worth losing inspire courage and competence for the mob debuffs and replacing Dirge with a mass-flatfooting song. Thanks!
Wasn't Sandman, so I think it was Court Bard. I think, overall, that a debuff build would work very well for a small party vs. numerous opponents but that a typical buff build would be better, overall.
That said, there is definitely something to be said for the debuff Cav/Bard. I feel like it could be effective, just sub-par to a buffing build, but definitely full of flavor.
This is all just my take without researching. If I'm wrong...whatever. It still sounds like a cool direction that isn't done too much.
Kudos to you for looking into a reverse method to a common method.
Big bad DM says core, advanced, and some ultimates only. Though I certainly appreciate the tip. I've read Treantmonk's guide for Bards several times over, but I don't think dipping into tripping will be worth it in the long run... then again, dipping into crit bonuses so late might be too circumstantial by that point.
ARGH! lol
I'm still chewing on Court Bard. I did learn, however, that Dramatic Display only applies to performance combats unless I take the Performance Combatant feat. I might drop it and take Saving Sheild instead or take Lingering Performance that much sooner.
Anyone else got anything?
You might be able to get a good deal of debuffing out of a Cavalier (Huntmaster archetype, Order of the Cockatrice), perhaps with a little bit of Rogue (Thug) mixed in.
The Takedown ability from the Huntmaster archetype lets your animals use some free Dirty Trick maneuvers. They also make for easy flanking buddies.
Dazzling Display = shaken
Brutal Beating (thug) = sickened
Dog companion = trip, and/or entangled
Bird companion = dazzled > blinded
That's rather a lot of debuffing.
Between Boon Companion and Horse Master, you should be able to multiclass and still support two companions well into mid levels.
I'm picturing a halfling with the Taunt feat (which lets you use Bluff instead of Intimidate to demoralize, and negates the penalty for being smaller than your target), using the dog as a mount to get up into combat, using Dazzling Display from the perfect position, dismounting (free action with a good Ride roll), and maneuvering into flanking position. Move your bird in, too.
On the next round, use Brutal Beating to inflict Sickened, and that should really increase the chances of your pets getting their maneuvers to succeed.
Yeah, that's true about Boon Companion. If you're stuck with just one animal, the bird is probably the best bet. Blindness = free sneak attacks, even with ranged weapons.
Those are both great ideas. Do you guys know if shaken (Dazzling Display) and sickened (brutal beating) stack? Because, if successful, that's -5 to hit if I go with Court Bard. We're all getting together tonight as a pre-session dinner to build our characters, so I'll ask him how he feels about huntmaster. As it stands I like the idea of having an animal companion that isn't a horse alongside a liberal use of summon monster I for an added aid/attack/flanking buddy.
I'm really unsure about dropping my sheild for a longspear since switching between rapier/whip sounded easy enough. I might consider the best of both worlds and go with a bill or ranseur instead and drop tripping for the disarm bonus on a reach weapon. Would that effect my flanking ability?
Yes, Shaken and Sickened stack. One warning about Court Bard: I love the archetype, but most if its powers are language dependent. That means you'll need to speak a ton of languages, and you won't be able to affect creatures that don't speak one. That includes basically all animals and vermin, some monstrous humanoids, aberrations, and magic beasts. And that's on top of creatures immune to mind-affecting effects. If possible, check with your GM about what sort of opposition you're likely to see in the campaign.
This is the only thing that holds the Court Bard back, I feel. Otherwise it's golden.
If you haven't already, check out the Antagonize feat, too. There's some debate to be had about whether it's truly language dependent: the text says the target must be able to understand you, but doesn't go into detail about what that entails. Ask your GM, but I think a Bard with max ranks in Perform: Comedy should be able to get the point across by gestures alone. lol
Alright, so you guys are basically the most awesomest ever. Here's what I've decided to go with for optimum debuffing/control.
Stats: 14, 14, 10, 14, 10, 17
Gear: guisarme, chain shirt, shortbow, arrows, entertainer's outfit, military saddle, saddle bags, maybe circumstantial thinga like caltrops, a crowbar, etc.
Level I: Court Bard I; Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level II: Cavalier I; Precise Strike
Level III: Cavalier II; Dazzling Display, Lingering Performance/Antagonize
Level IV: Court Bard II; Vers Perform (Comedy)
Level V: Thug I; Other feat from lvl iii
Level VI: Thug II; Combat Reflexes (Combat Trick via Rogue Talent)
Level VII: Court Bard III; Discordant Voice
Level VIII: Court Bard IV
Level IX: Court Bard V/Thug III; Greater Trip?
Probably all Court Bard levels from there. More attacks, no wasting actions switching from whip to rapier, and it feels like there's more opportunity to provide flanking, debuff mobs, and protect the squishy. My buddies switched it up a bit and went Inquisitor, Monk of the Four Winds, and Oracle of Waves (I think?). After lvl ix I'll probs go for more damage unless I can find more applicable feats for debuffing/control.
Re: languages. My DM is allowing us to roleplay learning a new language for every skill point we put in linguistics. So that, on top of me starting with two extra languages for having 14 int, should more than likely work out. Unless he's a jerk and has us face soulless, communication-immune mobs.
Thanks all! If you think I'm missing anything, let me know. We don't start for a while longer.
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I'm in love with the idea and sorely wish I could have someone like this show up in my adventuring parties. If perform is comedy, that makes order of the cockatrice that much more thematic. It's a whole new way to translate/interpret that stealing of glory that he does.
They get dazzling display for free if memory serves, so I would take as much advantage of that feat and ways to trigger it efficiently as possible. Haven't read the class in a bit but an even mix of bard and cavalier might just work out for the best,. And yes, the thug archetype is nice mechanicals and thematicay.
Not sure what the full combat plan is but ultimate combat has whip mastery, improved whip mastery and greater whip mastery . They require weapon focus whip but allow you to grab object, threaten better with the whip, ignore armor for stopping which damage, grapple with the whip, and not provoke aoo's when using the whip.. Oh, you also deal lethal damage with a whip, too.
Re: languages. My DM is allowing us to roleplay learning a new language for every skill point we put in linguistics. So that, on top of me starting with two extra languages for having 14 int, should more than likely work out. Unless he's a jerk and has us face soulless, communication-immune mobs.
You can get pretty far on Orc, Goblin, Giant, and Draconic. Most PC races will know common off the bat, as will conventional Outsiders, like Celestials and Fiends and stuff like that. Elementals are a problem, though.
If all else fails, Bards get Tongues as a mere 2nd level spell.
Glad you settled on something! It's always fun to watch a build come together.