So, by the book, a crafter can add powers to an existing magic item. This works slightly differently from the way it did in 3.5, where the lower cost ability added would cost 150% what it ordinarily would. In PF, all further enchantments after the original cost more.
So, let's assume Wizard A and Wizard B (both capable of crafting wondrous items).
Let's also assume Enchantment X, and Enchantment Y. Enchantment X is worth 2000 gp, and enchantment Y is worth 6000 gp.
Wizard A puts Enchantment X on his boots, and then later on he also puts Enchantment Y on the same boots. He spends half the value of Enchantment X in order to do this, and then 75% (half of 150%) of the value of Enchantment Y. 1000+4500=5500 gp.
Wizard B puts Enchantment Y on his boots, and then later on he also puts Enchantment X on the same boots. He spends half the value of Enchantment Y in order to do this, and then 75% (half of 150%) of the value of Enchantment X. 3000+1500=4500 gp.
Wizard A now owns a pair of magic boots worth 11000 gp. Wizard B owns a pair of magic boots that do EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but they are worth only 9000 gp.
Now let's say that Wizard A and Wizard B both get killed in combat with a giant slug. Their rogue friend survives the combat and collects their magic boots. He goes to sell them because he can't use them. What can he sell them for?
If the two pairs of boots sell for different amounts of money, how does the person he sells them to know which one is worth more?
I know crafters can make custom magic items that have multiple abilities...however I cannot find where you can simply add them on later
Also the pricing for those depends on whether or not they are multiple similar abilities or multiple different abilities
Ok found it sorry...
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2,the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility by 1.5
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The table for pricing custom magic items, is noted, many times, as a guideline.
A formula, for estimating the final cost.
It even goes on to say to compare it to listed items, to help estimate the final cost.
You will notice a number of listed magical items, that do not follow the table's formula.
You have to read all of the Custom Magic Item Guidelines, and not just the table.
OK, but I'm talking about combining two items -- like Slippers of Spider Climbing and Boots of Speed. RAW, the order in which they are enchanted matters.
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One answer is that while order matters for the cost to create the item, but the market value / sale price of the item is based on the most cost-effective way to craft it. Wizard A may have spent 5500gp on his boots, but they will sell for 4500gp just like Wizard B's boots because people generally won't pay a premium for more expensive production methods yielding the same result.
Personally, I price-hike the lower cost enhancements regardless of order.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Wizard B owns a pair of magic boots that do EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but they are worth only 9000 gp.
In all other cases this can't happen. Item prices don't depend on who makes them, but rather their market price. So for example a wand made by someone with an unusually low level spell that is higher level for other classes must still pay the higher craft cost.
For example if a class gets Haste as a 1st level spell, they couldn't make a 750 gp Wand of Haste.
I think the trick here is that the order in which price is calculated isn't a variable. It isn't clear form reading the rulebook, but lets take their example...
Example: Lisa's paladin has horseshoes of a zephyr and wants to hire Patrick's wizard to add the powers of horseshoes of speed to her current horseshoes. Their GM, Jessica, decides that this is a suitable item and tells Lisa and Patrick they can proceed. The price of horseshoes of speed is 3,000 gp, increased by 50% for the multiple different abilities rule to 4,500 gp. Patrick's wizard must spend 5 days and Lisa's paladin must pay 2,250 gp (half the 4,500 gp price difference) to add the new property to the horseshoes, resulting in an item worth 10,500 gp (6,000 gp originally + 4,500 gp for the new property).
They take the most expensive ability first and add 150% of the price of the different ability. The matter is confused because Lisa, in the example, is starting with the most expensive ability already on the item.
As several others have stated, item price only depends on the abilities present, and not on the order in which they are placed upon the item, or by whom the item is crafted. (In general, this additional bookkeeping is not Pathfinder standard, so any time you have to track the specific order to arrive at a thing... it should raise a flag). Therefore, you should come up with a method to estimate price according to the properties on the item, independent of the order, and use the method consistently. Ultimate Campaign seems to suggest a method with a less expensive result.
This sort of thinking would fall in line with the idea of upgrading weapons and armor, where you just pay the difference in final cost between your start and end item (where it doesn't matter in which order you arrive at the final result, the price is the same)
Wizard B owns a pair of magic boots that do EXACTLY THE SAME THING, but they are worth only 9000 gp.In all other cases this can't happen. Item prices don't depend on who makes them, but rather their market price. So for example a wand made by someone with an unusually low level spell that is higher level for other classes must still pay the higher craft cost.
For example if a class gets Haste as a 1st level spell, they couldn't make a 750 gp Wand of Haste.
OK, but following that logic, a player who could (for example) cast Haste as a 1st level spell for some reason would be able to craft wands of Haste on the cheap and then sell them for a profit because they would be selling for half of the STANDARD cost of the item.
Not that gunslingers don't already present that problem with their cheapo ammo crafting, but still.
The hypothetical caster with Haste as a first level spell would in fact craft the wand/scroll at a reduced price, and the price assumption would change to reflect that. If that character class is present in whatever game setting you are in, the basic, store available scroll/wand will have been made cheaply by somebody of that class at the reduced caster/spell level, and will consequently have poorer effects (will affect fewer people and be easier to dispel). This crafter could alter caster level to improve effect and resistance to dispel.
The other crafters would still be able to craft their versions, at the higher spell and caster level. These versions would necessarily be better than the basic version, and definitely more expensive. However, crafting at half price may yet be cheaper than buying a full price poorer item.
Spells that offer some sort of DC based check would benefit from a higher spell level, with the acceptable price for the item scaling likewise
Haste is a spell that scales fairly well with caster level and has a relevant disadvantage in that it may be dispelled. There may exist other spells where it would be less beneficial to have a higher caster level, in which case the higher cost items would almost certainly sell at the lowest reasonable cost.
Note, that might seem like a lot of work to track the cost of an item, but once you have your system in place it happens quickly enough... If its a basic, store bought item use the lowest possible price/effect. If specially crafted (by GM or player) write spell and caster level next to item, and use those numbers in the formula. If they want to sell the item, in many cases it would be fine to just let it go at half price (because of spell/caster level scaling). If the spell doesn't scale well, use price based on highest spell/caster level that was significant to the spell.
Other magic items would be harder to adjudicate, as some require a spell in construction, but then don't reflect the properties of the spell in action. In those cases, fall back to doing price comparisons with existing items, and rely on the table of formulae as a last result. If no similar items exist, use a reasonable caster level (you cant change spell level if your crafting without heighten)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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a player who could (for example) cast Haste as a 1st level spell for some reason would be able to craft wands of Haste on the cheap and then sell them for a profit because they would be selling for half of the STANDARD cost of the item.
No, you missed my point. The standard cost would be using the 3rd level Haste cost. So the raw materials would be half standard, so his only benefit is that he would be using 1st level slots and not 3rd level slots.
a player who could (for example) cast Haste as a 1st level spell for some reason would be able to craft wands of Haste on the cheap and then sell them for a profit because they would be selling for half of the STANDARD cost of the item.No, you missed my point. The standard cost would be using the 3rd level Haste cost. So the raw materials would be half standard, so his only benefit is that he would be using 1st level slots and not 3rd level slots.
It is my understanding that the standard cost of an item is based off of the lowest possible result, i.e spells from a wizard/cleric/druid in many cases.
In some cases, other casters access the spell earlier (Summoners for instance, get several earlier than usual). Ive heard of games in which the standard store item is based on this lower number, and also of games where it is based off the relatively more common full caster. Such a distinction is, admittedly, based on setting and not the basic rules of the game (unless there is something buried in a book that I missed). Also, this should really only influence what is commonly available, and the basic price point for a non scaling spell.
Either way, a poorer item mechanically (based on caster level and spell level) should cost less than a better item.
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Either way, a poorer item mechanically (based on caster level and spell level) should cost less than a better item.
Except spell level doesn't have an effect on how powerful the result is unless there's a saving throw, and caster level is also occasionally irrelevant. There is no advantage to having Lesser Restoration as a level 2 spell, caster level 3, rather than cast by a paladin as a 1st level spell, caster level 1. Which makes "paladin version" potions and wands of Lesser Restoration a ridiculously good deal.
I think there's something somewhere about always using the wizard/cleric/druid spell level for that reason (even when another class gets early entry), though it might have been only for PFS.
The boots are worth 9,000gp. Wizard A made a choice to craft them sub-optimally so he had to pay more. Wizard A's choice (which he may have had good reason for) doesn't change the fact that the boots are worth 9,000gp.
a player who could (for example) cast Haste as a 1st level spell for some reason would be able to craft wands of Haste on the cheap and then sell them for a profit because they would be selling for half of the STANDARD cost of the item.No, you missed my point. The standard cost would be using the 3rd level Haste cost. So the raw materials would be half standard, so his only benefit is that he would be using 1st level slots and not 3rd level slots.
This is not the case at all. If you are crafting the price is (spell level{your slot})x(caster level you choose between minimum for spell and your actual caster level)x(static mod for wand/potion/staff/scroll). That's it, the price and cost to craft are based on the crafters abilities not the 'normal' method.
The economics of your setting may dictate a different market price, but that has no bearing on cost to craft.
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Production cost (what the system call cost) is based on the spell level you used and the caster level of the item, sale price (what the system call price) is based on the caster level of the item (if it make a difference) and the lowest spell level of the spell used between all the allowed classes.
The relevant rule is in the magic item creation section of the rules:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
So officially the price of a wand of haste is based on the summoner, if you allow him in your campaign, SL 2 CL 4, 400 gp instead of 750. One of the many reasons to dislike the summoner spell list.
That said a lot of GM will not use the summoner spell list to price items, and will not allow the items that only summoners could make, like potions of dimension door or stoneskin.
Either way, a poorer item mechanically (based on caster level and spell level) should cost less than a better item.Except spell level doesn't have an effect on how powerful the result is unless there's a saving throw, and caster level is also occasionally irrelevant. There is no advantage to having Lesser Restoration as a level 2 spell, caster level 3, rather than cast by a paladin as a 1st level spell, caster level 1. Which makes "paladin version" potions and wands of Lesser Restoration a ridiculously good deal.
I think there's something somewhere about always using the wizard/cleric/druid spell level for that reason (even when another class gets early entry), though it might have been only for PFS.
I think I addressed part of this in an earlier post, but perhaps I was unclear with my intent.
Not all spells are better with increased spell level and/or caster level. If a spell does scale *well* by a mechanic that is determined by a theoretical norm set and consistently implemented by the gaming group for the setting in which they play, then it is *fair* to allow an item based on that spell to be sold at the crafted price. (note *well* and *fair* are unclear terms, but I'm feeling too lazy to think up a more precise terminology)
If a given spell does not scale well in a particular fashion determined by that norm (say, increased spell level when there is no saving throw involved) then the increase in price associated with an item with that spell could be called a crafting tax on the caster. (i.e. the caster who makes the item spends more that he would recuperate upon sale to a 'market' vendor.)
Even in the case where it is a significantly better deal to have it crafted by another class, there are times when it would be more convenient for the crafter to make the item at the higher cost (when you cant return to wherever the item is available, or, depending on setting, if magic items are scarcely available). The hypothetical crafter pays for the convenience of not needing to search out the item.
The set of spells which have the non-scaling quality are rather a small subset of all spells, but I agree with you on the position that a norm that does not handle all possible input is not actually a norm at all... but my earlier suggestion still handles these adequately, I believe. This is by no means perfect, but I have used it in the games I GM.
Reiterating...
If its a basic, store bought item use the lowest possible price/effect. If specially crafted (by GM or player) write spell and caster level next to item, and use those numbers in the formula. If they want to sell the item, in many cases it would be fine to just let it go at half price (because of spell/caster level scaling). If the spell doesn't scale well, use price based on highest spell/caster level that was significant to the spell.
Other magic items would be harder to adjudicate, as some require a spell in construction, but then don't reflect the properties of the spell in action. In those cases, fall back to doing price comparisons with existing items, and rely on the table of formulae as a last result. If no similar items exist, use a reasonable caster level (you cant change spell level if your crafting without heighten)
in this, 'spell/caster level' should read 'spell and or caster level'. Also, note the first paragraph applies to items like wands, potions, scrolls, and generally spells-in-a-can.
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This is not the case at all. If you are crafting the price is (spell level{your slot})x(caster level
The OP wasn't asking about things that use a formula.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Potion and Wands do deviate (I was wrong), but Scrolls assume Wizard or Cleric (whichever is cheapest) makes it. For everything else the item has a set price and who is making it doesn't get a discount (or cost increase.)
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@Adept_Woodwright - Sounds reasonable to use some GM judgment to allow lower crafting costs / market value in the case where the resulting item really is poorer mechanically.
@everyone else - Yes, RAW you simply use the cheapest possible crafter. RAI, a Wand of Haste is listed in Ultimate Equipment as a 3rd level wand, 11,250gp. This is the standard sale price.
Partial-casting classes are given access to some spells at lower spell level in order to ensure that they have them at the character level at which those spells are relevant. This wasn't intended as a means to give everyone access to super-cheap items duplicating those spells.
I think the trick here is that the order in which price is calculated isn't a variable. It isn't clear form reading the rulebook, but lets take their example...
Ultimate Campaign Magic Item Creation:Example: Lisa's paladin has horseshoes of a zephyr and wants to hire Patrick's wizard to add the powers of horseshoes of speed to her current horseshoes. Their GM, Jessica, decides that this is a suitable item and tells Lisa and Patrick they can proceed. The price of horseshoes of speed is 3,000 gp, increased by 50% for the multiple different abilities rule to 4,500 gp. Patrick's wizard must spend 5 days and Lisa's paladin must pay 2,250 gp (half the 4,500 gp price difference) to add the new property to the horseshoes, resulting in an item worth 10,500 gp (6,000 gp originally + 4,500 gp for the new property).They take the most expensive ability first and add 150% of the price of the different ability. The matter is confused because Lisa, in the example, is starting with the most expensive ability already on the item.
As several others have stated, item price only depends on the abilities present, and not on the order in which they are placed upon the item, or by whom the item is crafted. (In general, this additional bookkeeping is not Pathfinder standard, so any time you have to track the specific order to arrive at a thing... it should raise a flag)....
I agree this is how it should work. Unfortunately, the CRB has an example of adding a more expensive ability onto a less expensive one that works the other way around.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility [cost 20K] to her ring of protection 2 [cost 8K], the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Aha! A relevant rule. Thank you, Weirdo.
It is indeed unfortunate that they have written a specific rule for body slot items that opposes the common practice for all other types of items
The same subsection states:
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Example: Lisa's paladin has horseshoes of a zephyr and wants to hire Patrick's wizard to add the powers of horseshoes of speed to her current horseshoes. Their GM, Jessica, decides that this is a suitable item and tells Lisa and Patrick they can proceed. The price of horseshoes of speed is 3,000 gp, increased by 50% for the multiple different abilities rule to 4,500 gp. Patrick's wizard must spend 5 days and Lisa's paladin must pay 2,250 gp (half the 4,500 gp price difference) to add the new property to the horseshoes, resulting in an item worth 10,500 gp (6,000 gp originally + 4,500 gp for the new property).
Depending on the setting, i.e. how high priced item sales and crafting downtime are handled, a savvy crafter can avoid the price hike enforced by this *odd* rule entirely (which is one of the reasons why I believed in the opposite position, initially).
As for the presence of the Wand of Haste in a table... let's not be so hasty as to what that means. I had a little difficulty finding it until I checked the Appendix of UE. It does appear in a table with the price for a wizard to craft it, but the type of table it is in is important. That is not a crafting table, but a random loot generation table, i.e. a tool for GMs to use to simplify their encounter design methods. The price listed is for a wizard at lowest possible caster level (which is a standard benchmark for people who don't like to allow non-Core classes, so it encompasses a larger subset of Pathfinder players).
As such, nothing on that table (or, indeed, on any of the random loot tables) may be used as the definitive answer on item pricing. Instead, you have to go through the item creation process (which includes looking up things in item creation tables). Otherwise, you get the somewhat silly result of a strict RAW interpretation (as I see it) that
1)The item exists in table,
2)You do not use pricing guidelines if a similar item exists in a table,
3)Only caster level 5, spell level 3 Wands of Haste may be crafted
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In both examples, the order of addition is the deciding factor. However, for sale price, the lowest cost method must be used... as there is no rule that goes onto say that this item is worth more than an exactly equivalent item made differently. Therefore, as with the discussion above concerning spell-items, the difference in cost could be seen as a tax upon the crafter (in this case, for trying to save one or more days by not selling the original item to start from scratch)
Yes, that's certainly the RAW (as was mentioned upthread).
As for the presence of the Wand of Haste in a table... let's not be so hasty as to what that means. I had a little difficulty finding it until I checked the Appendix of UE. It does appear in a table with the price for a wizard to craft it, but the type of table it is in is important. That is not a crafting table, but a random loot generation table, i.e. a tool for GMs to use to simplify their encounter design methods. The price listed is for a wizard at lowest possible caster level (which is a standard benchmark for people who don't like to allow non-Core classes, so it encompasses a larger subset of Pathfinder players).
As such, nothing on that table (or, indeed, on any of the random loot tables) may be used as the definitive answer on item pricing. Instead, you have to go through the item creation process (which includes looking up things in item creation tables). Otherwise, you get the somewhat silly result of a strict RAW interpretation (as I see it) that
1)The item exists in table,
2)You do not use pricing guidelines if a similar item exists in a table,
3)Only caster level 5, spell level 3 Wands of Haste may be crafted
A random loot generation table is the only place you'll find specific wands, scrolls, or potions listed since you don't have to describe what each individual wand/scroll/potion does the same way you would have to describe each individual weapon property, wondrous item, staff, etc.
The only reason to put a 2nd level 3rd CL wand of haste on a random loot generation table is if it is intended to be the typical or most common example of the wand of haste - otherwise the wand of haste would have been placed at 750gp (spell level 1, CL 1) on that table. This doesn't mean you can't create wands of other spell or caster levels, just that they're not the standard. Note that UE was published after the summoner class and includes the summoner-specific Eidolon Anchoring Harness so the book was put together with the fact that summoners exist in mind.