Shield Slam Bonuses to Bull Rush?

[Ranax]

When you use a weapon to perform a combat maneuver you usually add to your maneuver CMB the weapon enhancement bonus + anything else you're using to increase that weapon's attack roll (weapon focus, weapon training, etc).

When you perform a shield slam do you add your shield bash bonuses to the CMB of the bull rush?

[KainPen]

there is nothing raw that say you add them. Because bull rush is not preformed by a weapon normally. There is weapon property to do just this effect. Shield slam states that it gives you a free bull rush attack, when you hit with the shield, not that you are preforming it with the shield. But considering you do not re roll your d20 as you substitute the attack roll for the cmb check it kind feel like you are making it with the shield it self. It is kind of gray area, seen some people on these boards say you add the bonus from the weapons, training, ect. but do not get to use the bonus from bull rush feats because you are substitute the weapon attack roll for cmb check. I see others say you don’t add anything but the bull rush feats bonus because you can't bull rush with a weapon. As a GM I fall in the middle allow both but it is a house rule for me.

Maybe some one else can find an offial answer to this as I could not or get it FAQ to an answer, more and more shield builds and question haven been poping up recently.

[Elbedor]

PRD wrote:

Shield Slam (Combat)

In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

According to what I highlighted it would seem that you are not actually making a CMB check for a Bull rush, but rather using your Attack roll in place of the CMB check. Therefore any bonuses are already added in. If you have Weapon Focus (Shield Bash) and are using a shield of Bashing, that right there is +2 on your attack roll. Since your attack roll is used instead of your regular CMB, then the bonuses are already applying.

Since this ability completely bypasses the whole Improved Bull rush feat line, I'm curious to know if your Improved and Greater Bull Rush bonuses can be included somehow. They don't appear to be in this effect.

[Krodjin]

I think the Improved & Greater Bullrush bonuses still get added. Your just using your attack roll in place of the roll you would make for the manouvre.

[Elbedor]

I would love to see them added. I'm just not sure how they are. If I am understanding this correctly, basically with a Shield Slam you start with making a regular bash attack against the target's AC. So things like Weapon Focus, weapon enhancement bonuses, and Fighter weapon training have come into play, but Impr/Greater Bull rush bonuses don't. If you hit, you then deal damage normally. The "free Bull rush" then come into play immediately after this and the attack roll you've already made is compared to the CMD of the target. If it's high enough, you successfully add in the free bull rush.

So you lose the +4 from the Bull rush feats, but you gain all bonuses related to performing a Shield Bash.

[Krodjin]

I'd add the +4 to the roll you just made for the purposes of getting the total amount you compare to the targets CMD.

[KainPen]

see gray area, there about 4 or 5 threads like this all of them short so no one ever hits faq. they pop up about every 3 or 4 months. I suggest FAQ. This why I just run the middle ground of argument in my games. I see both side the argument, I don’t think the Raw or Rai fit the intent of the feat. I think the intent was to give a free bulrush attempt a lot like a lot of feats that give ability’s give free Aoo or skill check after an attack ect.

[Elbedor]

I could see the need for a FAQ if there was a lot of debate on the board over this. But the traffic doesn't seem to be there.

Impr/Greater Bull rush aside, the case is pretty straight forward. If you hit a target with a shield bash, it is immediately subject to a Bull rush from you with your attack roll counting as your CMB check. So by default anything adding to your attack roll is part of this.

Now if someone has Impr/Greater Bull rush, can they add in that +4? I'd agree with KainPen and seeing both sides of the argument would say it's up to GM interpretation.

[Krodjin]

See I misunderstood what you were saying. The way I've interpreted it is that the only thing you're keeping is the number that comes up on the dice - and then adding your CMB.

I've never contemplated adding in any of the weapon enhancement bonuses etc.

I think I like what your proposing better - Improved & Greater cap at a +4 bonus, where as you can get your shield up to +5 and free up 2 feats that I wouldn't otherwise take.

[Bizbag]

Shield Slam uses an attack roll in place of a CMB check entirely, so Improved/Greater Bull Rush likely do not apply - they add to any "checks made to bull rush a for", but an attack roll doesn't usually count as a "check".

You can get bonuses to an attack roll much more easily, though, with magic, feats, weapon training... So that may still be preferable.

[Krodjin]

I prefer the other (and my new) interpretation; I clicked FAQ button though. I'd rather free up the feat slots on my Ranger, and to be honest at level 6 my shield enchantments will apply to my attack rolls via Shield Master anyhow... So not using the CMB for Bullrush is a waaaay better deal.

[N N 959]

Bizbag wrote:

Shield Slam uses an attack roll in place of a CMB check entirely, so Improved/Greater Bull Rush likely do not apply - they add to any "checks made to bull rush a for", but an attack roll doesn't usually count as a "check".

This.

Shield Slam is a feat that gives you a free Bull Rush if your attack hits. You do not get to add any CMB bonuses to the attack because technically you are not executing a CM, you're making an attack. If you want to get your CMB bonus added to the Bull Rush...then make a Bull Rush. The penalty is you don't get the attack damage.

Let me put another way: I highly doubt they want you to let you eat your cake and have it too.

Either Shield Slam and accept the attack roll as the check roll entirely, or Bull Rush and get your CMB and forego the damage.

[Elbedor]

If you have Shield Slam, there really is no reason (that I can think of anyway) why you would attempt an ordinary Bull rush. The Shield Slam is in all ways superior.

#1 You get to add in everything that increases the attack roll for your weapon. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Fighter Training, and Weapon Enhancements. This is a potential +11 instead of the CMB's +4. There might be other bonuses that apply to an attack and not a CM attempt, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

#2 You get to deal damage to the target. A regular Bull rush spends your action shoving someone around. With Shield Slam you get to do this too and AFTER you've just bashed them in the face.

#3 You don't need Improved Bull rush to avoid drawing an AoO from the target. If you take Impr/Greater Bull rush, you're doing so for the other benefits (+2 to your CMD and forcing target to provoke).

#4 Many larger targets have lower ACs than they do CMDs. So even if you fail to Bull rush them, you most likely have hit and done something...which is better than taking up your whole turn to do nothing.

The only downside is if the target has significantly higher AC than CMD. But in that case, you are free to just do an ordinary Bull rush and forego Shield Slamming if you wish.