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Have you asked them what they're looking for out of the game and what they would find fun?
Honestly the best advice I can give you right now is to ask your players for some feedback. Ask them what were the high/low points, what do they think you could do to capture their interest. Maybe after so many years out of the game, Pathfinder is a little overwhelming for them? It is a rather complex system.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Lamontius.
Yes, as obvious as that sounds, I believe it should be the first thing you do. What is that bores them? What were they expecting? More violence? More 'sense of danger'?
Once you know what they want, it will be a lot easier to manage it. Come back to this post (or to the forums in general) to get advice on how to create a mood along the campaign or any given situation you can think of.
Also, grats on your efforts, it seems you're really putting everything out there :)
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Agreed. Without knowing where the disconnect lies, it's really hard to fix it. It may be something as simple as your method of GMing might be counter to their expectations as players. It could be that they're having trouble grokking the system. It could be something else entirely.
Just ask them, and let them know you won't be offended if they tell you they were wanting to play something else.
If you didn't play with them in the past (and maybe even if you did) ask them what they liked in the old days. That may help them explain what they're looking for now.
There is no one good way to do this, it's about what the players want. Some like to nearly act it out, others want nothing more than to roll dice and consult charts. You just have to find what things excite your players.
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Um, you've barely even started!
They will have no investment in the story or possibly even their characters yet. Add to that the fact you are all learning a new game system so there is more to process and learn.
Give it time.
Remember, even a well crafted back story can take time to "click".
You may want to hold back on the detail in the early fights to give the story a chance to get rolling, then steadily re-introduce it as the players get more invested. Combat can really drag the story pacing down.
However, I really DO think that MMOs and video games teach awful, awful habits that take the fun right out of RPGs. Things like:
- Expecting NPCs to be moronic robots with limited and rigid behavioural capacity
- Expecting every bit of garbage the PC's pick up to be worth something. I'll never forget the look on one of my PC's faces when Ven Vinder refused to buy even a masterwork horsechopper because Ven figured no-one would buy "that evil goblin crap"
- feeling the need to check EVERY DAMNED ROOM even though the party has achieved their goal and they are escorting an injured and distressed NPC
- expecting the whole game world to just stop while they are off in a dungeon and decide they need to camp for a night in the middle of an enemy fort
...sorry. Pet peev ;-)
Once you have the feedback, come back and tell us!!! You'll not believe the tons of awesome ideas these folks have to share. Also, you may wanna take a look at Community created stuff, a lot is going on over there (at page 14 I believe there is a compilatory post. I promise I'll be working on that soon, to make it up to date).
One suggestion: A "Rules Monkey". We have the PRD on an iPad at the table, and if it's not your turn in combat or you're the least involved, you're responsible for looking up the pertinent rule.
Takes a HUGE load off the GM, especially if all of you are unfamiliar with the rules.
We have the opposite problem with our resident actor: He wants to be part of EVERY scene, so even, "I take her off to the side to console her on the loss of her friend," becomes, "I follow along and say that since she's single now, I'd like to date her!"
wait
So it's currently you the OP as the GM, and two players? Three players? Four? You're playing Rise of the Runelords, correct?
How experienced are your players/yourself with the rules and mechanics of Pathfinder and/or 3.5 D&D?
How often do you meet for gaming sessions?
TLDR: Group of actors are having a really tough time roleplaying and a lack of familiarity with the rules is really slowing things down, leading to a lot of yawning during the sessions.
I echo the appoint a Rules Monkey idea.
Two other ideas.
1. Give everyone a META (out of character) role. Examples are: the Map Captain in charge of keeping the map clean between combats; Initiative Meister, keeps track of the initiative count; Chronicler, keeps a journal or at least notes of the NPCs and quests; Treasurer, keeps track of the party treasure; etc. Rotate these jobs around so that everyone has a chance to be involved. If everyone has a "job" at the table, and everyone knows what that job is it will make them more comfortable with each other.
2. Having gamed with professional (and non-professional) actors, give them plenty of *fluff* to dig into: inter-twining character backgrounds, relationships with other characters and NPCs, history, quirks, expand upon whatever Traits they have selected and give them depth. Give them that safety net of a character persona to fall back on. And don't be afraid to make it over the top -- it really is just another role.
Finally, play the game for the story aspect and don't be afraid to hand-wave the rules in favor of compelling action and drama. The purpose of the rules it to facilitate fun and game play -- ignore them if they impede that.
CJ
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Yeah, I think some team-building exercises might be in order. Since you're all actors, grab a play and do a reading. Much Ado About Nothing is always fun, even if everyone's the same gender. If you're not wanting to go back that far, or if the non-actor might feel left out, then something more contemporary might be in order.
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Sorry Actors dig here. :)
'Shouldnt you guys be doing LARP instead?'
Beyond that.
A) Dont let sessions go too long. Keep em lean and mean.
B) Its never fun to game with less than or more than the players 'suggested' . For this AP that number is 4. Less than 4 and your CR's go up a lot, more and there are people not getting to shine.
C)Make each player take a trait from the Players guide and see how they fit into the story.
D) Team building exercises? Pass. The best teams are those who play under adversity! :)
Seriously? You're sending out, "How NobodysHome's group managed that encounter" after they finish?
That is so amazingly awesome!
Thank you SO much!
Just watch out -- one of them's going to demand to play a drow paladin any time now...
It could be be pathfinder is a bad choice of rpg for your group? Plenty more narrative n less crunchy games out there!
No worries! Still an amazingly awesome compliment! Makes me feel better about spending 2 1/2 hours yesterday on the December 7 writeup. (Part II is out for player edits, Part III will go out today, so I'm going to achieve my 2-a-week goal! *PHEW*!)
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I'll recommend Legend of the Five Rings as an alternative. It's still got some crunch, but it's not nearly as fiddly as Pathfinder. The best way to describe it is "you play samurai in a mythical Japan that never was." There's a lot more emphasis on developing your character's personality and his relationship with the world. There's a lot of backstory and weird idiosyncrasies to the world, but it's not 100% necessary to enjoy the game. For example, as a samurai, there's a strong tradition of giving gifts to other samurai as a matter of courtesy. However, simply accepting the gift is considered extremely rude, since that does not give the gift-giver the opportunity to show his earnestness in giving the gift. The polite way of accepting a gift in Rokugani society is to refuse the gift twice, only accepting upon the third offering.
"Doji-san, it is good to see you again after so many months! I had to travel quite a long way from my ancestral lands to your home. Along the way, I painted this fan for you, and it would please me to give it to you."
"Ah, Bayushi-san, it is good to see you as well. I do appreciate the sentiment, but as you can see, I already own a fan. I would be a poor courtier if I did not!"
"I see that, Doji-san. But while you do own a fan, the painting upon it is that of a crane nurturing its young. Hardly the illustration a young courtier such as yourself wishes to present, is it? This fan, however, is that of a crane taking flight from a still pond. I am sure it will aid you far better than the fan you flutter in front of your face."
"No doubt that it would, Bayushi-san, but this fan was a gift to me from my sensei upon the occasion of my gempukku. I honor him as I bear it to court. Surely, you do not wish me to dishonor to my sensei, do you?"
"On the contrary, Doji-san. I think it good that you honor him so. But, were he here, I'm sure your sensei would agree that you can honor him in more than one way. Perhaps placing it in a position of honor in your house, for example, while carrying this one in court."
"Perhaps he would at that, Bayushi-san. We must strive to utilize every advantage we can in the courts, and your fan may prove quite useful in the days and weeks to come. I thank you for such a thoughtful gift."
...I've played a lot of L5R. :D
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It's true. If they're not used to that degree of RP, they may not be ready for L5R just yet.
Another classic example is the poetry contest. In order to pass the time, a higher status samurai suggests a poetry contest, with some netsuke or something as the prize to whoever comes up with the best poem. Players can just roll their Perform: Storytelling/Awareness, but if they actually take the time to compose a quick haiku, then they get bonuses to the roll. If they craft the poem to appeal to the judge, then they might get even more bonuses!
Finally, there's often excuses for NPCs to ask philosophical questions to the PCs, and hear their take upon the answer. There's often no wrong answer, and it's just an RP exercise for the players, but sometimes their answers might inform the NPC to a certain action down the road. Maybe a samurai who has shown some weakness in the past is being blackmailed by another, and he's considering his options. Does he go through with the blackmailer's requests? Does he ignore them and allow the secret to come out? Does he try to get blackmail on the blackmailer? Does he kill the blackmailer? He's not sure, but he's had good relations with one of the PCs previously, and he'd like to get their opinion. "Hida-san, a word, if I may. I have a question for you. If someone was trying to leverage you into an uncomfortable position - politically, mind you - what would you do?"
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Well, this is intended more as "advice" than "patting myself on the back 'til my arm breaks", but Shiro's player read this thread and said, "Be patient. For the first few sessions, new characters are nothing more than numbers and a name on a sheet of paper. If you get 10 sessions in and the players still aren't having fun or roleplaying, then it's time to start worrying."
And it's true. Hi's player was infamously taciturn. Our previous GM did everything he possibly could to get him involved, to the point of making him a demigod, and still watched as he sat at the table silently, letting anyone other than him take the lead.
To solve it, I was just plain annoying. In our Kingmaker campaign, he chose his usual human ranger character. He NEVER played anything other than a human ranger. So I put him in charge of the party, handed the player the charter, and said, "Whoever at the table is holding his paper is the Law of the Land."
Hilarity ensued as the more aggressive gamers tried to slip off with the paper, and he aggressively defended it.
When we started RotRL, Raesh's player chose what he was (a gnome pyromancer) and I wrote his background. He had no say in the matter. And if you read my original e-mails to him ("eyebrows are a sign of weakness") you'll see that I went straight over-the-top with it.
Now he's an unbelievably active roleplayer in our group, and delights in talking about all of Hi's idiosyncracies. Even when Hi died, he just shrugged and said, "I'll be back." (It's in the obits, but not in the thread yet. December 14.)
Moral(s) of the story?
(1) Give your players time to start thinking about their PCs as 'people', rather than 'numbers on a sheet of paper'. Forcing them to roleplay their PCs when they have no idea who they are yet is destined to fail, which is what I think you're feeling right now.
(2) While they're developing their PCs' personalities, give them little vignettes that force them to react so that they can figure out who they are. Burnt Offerings is one of the best modules I've seen at doing just that. From the initial festival to fending off the attacks to saving the foppish Aldern Foxglove to being asked to help by the taciturn Sheriff Hemlock to meeting the beautiful-but-terrifying Shalelu, they get to react to a huge variety of events, and that will help them develop who they are. Once they know who their PCs are, I think you'll see them roleplaying much more.
Give 'em a bit of time. And include EVERYTHING. The Hagfish. Shayliss. The boar hunt. Anything and everything to get them doing things to which they need to react, not just roll a die.
I think your best friend will be, "No, I don't really need a die roll on that; I just want to know what you're going to do..."
Can't wait to dive in, Nobodyshome!
@Misroi. . . that. Sounds. Amazing. Will definitely have to check that out. Though, if I have a tough time getting my guys to roleplay a simple, "I whisper a word of pre-epmtive thanks to my deity, calling upon her power to aid in my smiting this foul fiend," I'm not sure yet how I'd get them to rp the amazing gift exchange. Will definitely have to check it out, though, thanks!
I won't pretend to have read every line of every post in this thread, but I think I've got the general tone of folks' feedback and it's all very solid.
What you're hearing again and again is "give it time", and I think that's the key.
It's going to take time for a lot of things to happen. It's going to take time to get used to the mechanics of the game, but that's the easy part. The hard part is what you're mentioning... the roleplay side of things.
A lot of people feel really self-conscious dropping into character. Acting out in-character discussion feels "childish" and though they may not be able to put it into words, it feels uncomfortable for most people. They don't want to be seen being silly.
The only advice I have is to know your audience and play to it. If you've got a player who likes to debate things... someone who likes taking the unpopular view of a topic as their own, use that. Deliberately engage them in in-character discussions about morality for instance. When an NPC starts a debate, the lines become blurred and your player may not realize that they're being in-character. Keep doing that... giving them opportunities to talk in-character in ways they're comfortable with and it'll start to feel natural.
A good way for me to illustrate this is to tell you that my gaming groups are a} three guys and b} seven guys, all hetero. When it comes to in-character flirtation, none of us are comfortable acting it out. Doesn't matter that a certain NPC in the adventure you're playing is supposed to seduce a PC... it's awkward at the table because we're just not comfortable acting out certain kinds of lines at one another. So... know the audience, and work around it, don't force that uncomfortable roleplay but do encourage the parts that your players are comfortable with.
A couple suggestions
- don't worry so much about role-playing, instead ask them to contribute to telling the story. If they describe what they do "I tell the bartender to shut up!" instead of speaking a line "Shut yer mouth, Barkeep!" let it go. Or even encourage it if its getting them into the game.
- don't worry so much about the rules. If you or they make a mistake, roll with it. Shrug it off. Tell the story. Learn from it for next time if it makes you feel better.
- have them write down three interesting things about their character. No right or wrong answers. "He likes beer." "Morning Stars are the best weapons ever!" "Green ribbons make me itch." Can't come up with three, how about two or one? And then whenever anything happens to that character have them come up with something based on it. Oh wait, everyone can do that even if they already have 3.
- if I'm reading a subtext right here, sounds like since you're actors and you think you should be better or more comfortable at role-playing. Nothing is quite as frustrating as expecting you'll be better at something than you are especially the first few times. Cut yourselves some slack.
Fun, story, laughs, victory. Those are the things people remember from game sessions and not so much "remember when Gronk crit'd that barbarian shaman on that attack of opportunity when the barb failed his con check for casting on the defensive?"