bard skald dirge combined raging zombies

[Count Coltello]

A pc has a bard and wants to take skald (rageing minions) and dirge bard (zombie minions)
Normally can't do it because they both replace the same thing (Jack of all trades iirc)

Now could they just opt to not have the skald one that summons the minions?

What could we give them instead or do they just not get anything because we allow dirge bard summoning things

[XMorsX]

Does he want them both for the summoning ability?

I say let him choose one or the other. But if you are ok with it, you could swap Berserkergang with Song of the Fallen.

[Count Coltello]

He wants the raging skald abilities but wants to summon undead and dirge bard allows mind affecting powers to affect undead so he can make them rage I believe he doesn't want the song of the fallen?(think that's the one that works like the horn for skald) but I figured I'd give him alittle extra maybe for his undead? Btw there's only two of them a necro wizard and him a raging necro bard

[darkwarriorkarg]

Undead, not unread. Unless he's summoning a bunch of illiterates...

[Count Coltello]

Lol thought I editted it in time guess not lol phone thinks it knows what I'm saying

[XMorsX]

Let him have both and choose if he wants to use dance of the dead or Song of the Fallen every time he activates his bardic performance. Really useful for when there are no dead enemies around to raise.

Another thing to help him is to build for him some good lvl 5 barbarians to summon. For example:

Human Invulnerable rager 5

1. Power Attack, Cleave
2. Superstition
3. Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
4. Witch Hunter
5. Step up

Alternatively, make the barbarians being undead. In order to keep them at the same power lvl, consider making them skeletal champions, but with the burning skeleton modifications. Making them go boom! when they die is fun for the player too.

[Count Coltello]

So not just normal wimpy skeletons? Undead that are more their lvl or a couple lvls lower?

[XMorsX]

Count Coltello wrote:

So not just normal wimpy skeletons? Undead that are more their lvl or a couple lvls lower?

Dance of the dead animates whatever is already lying dead in the battlefield.

Song of the Fallen brings allies no matter how many corpses are lying on the battlefield.

If you want to replace song of the fallen and still help the player, you should replace it with something of equal power. The human barbarians are stronger than their simple skeleton counterparts (same HD), but by stacking the skeletal champion and burning skeleton templates you can bring their potential on par with the regular barbarians.

[Count Coltello]

Ah I thought the animated stuff is weaker than the thing that was alive

[XMorsX]

Count Coltello wrote:

Ah I thought the animated stuff is weaker than the thing that was alive

It is weaker, this is why I suggested the two templates, in order to boost its power.

[Count Coltello]

Ah right

[Thymus Vulgaris]

The bonuses from rage are morale, which undead are immune to. If he wants to make the undead rage, he doesn't stand to gain much.
(An ACG skald could at least give them rage powers, but as a bard he can't take skald levels).

[Count Coltello]

I thought the dirge bard make them be effected by that stuff? Or is mind effecting different than morale?

[Thymus Vulgaris]

It's different. Mind affecting is in this case a spell descriptor, whereas morale is a kind of bonus. The strength (and constitution) bonus from rage is a morale bonus, so it does nothing to undead.

But you know, now that I read it closer, the undead traits do list "morale effects" as an example of mind-affecting effects. So maybe that would work with the rage spell, but going strictly by RAW, dirge bard's Secret of the Grave lets the bard "use mind-affecting spells to affect undead as if they were living creatures", and savage skald's Incite Rage, like other bardic performances, is not a spell.

[XMorsX]

As skeletons, the barbarians lose their class features, including rage. Essentialy they are not barbarians anymore, you just use them for calculating hit dice. If he wants to buff them by having two or three performances active at the same time, he can use inspire courage and inspire heroics. No morale bonuses to saves, but the rest will work.

Just going savage skald will be certainly better from an optimization standpoint as far as the summoning and buffing ability are concearned. But if your player wants the undead flavor, it is perfectly possible to make it effective with the templates and the above performances.

[Count Coltello]

As dm I could say his morale effects work right? If nothing else I was hoping to stick to raw but can house rule it ...

Question is will that turn out too powerful? (I don't think he is gonna fight more let hordes fight for him he hasn't chosen a weapon yet as far as I know)

Dunno if that makes a difference either

And like I said its a wizard and bard no meat shields lol

[Thymus Vulgaris]

I have no clue about the balance, but whether you can do it... Sure, you're the GM. What you say goes (unless you're met by massive player protests in which case it might be wise to reconsider, but I don't think that'll be the case here).